Show dog VS field dog conformation

[wvduece]

im gonna jump in here n ask a question i asked the same question a few years ago n here im gonna ask it again since the thread is going towards genes ok here it is i had 2 red n white copper nose dogs both real good dogs as far as gun hunting the female was pretty mouthy at TIMES the male was just right with his mouth not too tight n not too loose i asked the question about breeding the two dogs would i get mouthy pups or would i get tight mouth dogs i was told by some that i would get a mix of both some mouthy n some tight--- ok herfe is what i got the pups will be 5 this coming june so here is what i got from breeding 2 different type mouths all of the dogs are tight mouth dogs not any of them have any extra mouth so in 5 years they have developed into what they are tight mouth dogs wheres the mix of loose mouth dogs? by the way they all were red n white copper nose what happened to the loose mouth i almost didnt make the cross because i was afraid i would get mouthy dogs now im glad i made the cross because the pups made real dogs with no extra mouth at all jb

[Bev]

You've admitted that one parent had no extra mouth. I would wager to say that behind the other parent were also dogs with no extra mouth (even thought that dog had some). The "no extra mouth" genes probably far outweighed the others. I wouldn't want to take any of the offspring BACK to a mouthy hound, though. You'll increase the chances of it showing up later. Most goals are not accomplished with one breeding. Sometimes it's 3 or 4 generations before you see what you've done. The key is to know as much as you can about all of the dogs behind the two you plan to breed. Those are the dogs to which you're really breeding, not the ones on the ground in front of you.

[Larry G]

Explains why a black a white couple produce chocolate babies.

The "chocolate babies" have some white genes presenting and some black genes presenting at the same time in different ways. There are no chocolate genes. I bred a mostly white, tri-color bitch with nothing but tricolors behind her to a male with mostly blueticks and some tri-colors behind him. Out of 5 puppies, I got 3 blueticks and 2 Red/whites...not a tricolor in the litter. It may appear that way at times, but it ain't like mixin' paint. The genes have got to be there...somewhere. You either double up on those recessive genes, or you minimize their influence.

Keep breeding cold-nosed hounds to hot-nosed hounds Larry, and let us know how it's workin' for ya. [/quote

It's working just fine... would you care to see some pic's of my hounds and the trophies they have won, both in the field and on the bench?

And oh yeah... granny passed on, but there's obviously still folks like her keeping the dream alive.... would you care to join?

http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublons ... ociety.htm

PS: It would be quite a shock to a chocolate skinned couple if they started having black babies and white babies! Might cause some suspicion! Hey, relax, man... Bev can explain all that!

Ha ha I hope you know this is just all in fun and don't get your panties in a wad like some on here do.

[blunder]

im gonna jump in here n ask a question i asked the same question a few years ago n here im gonna ask it again since the thread is going towards genes ok here it is i had 2 red n white copper nose dogs both real good dogs as far as gun hunting the female was pretty mouthy at TIMES the male was just right with his mouth not too tight n not too loose i asked the question about breeding the two dogs would i get mouthy pups or would i get tight mouth dogs i was told by some that i would get a mix of both some mouthy n some tight--- ok herfe is what i got the pups will be 5 this coming june so here is what i got from breeding 2 different type mouths all of the dogs are tight mouth dogs not any of them have any extra mouth so in 5 years they have developed into what they are tight mouth dogs wheres the mix of loose mouth dogs? by the way they all were red n white copper nose what happened to the loose mouth i almost didnt make the cross because i was afraid i would get mouthy dogs now im glad i made the cross because the pups made real dogs with no extra mouth at all jb

It is pretty simple to explain. It's all about "odds". When we say that a breeding will produce half red and white and half tri-colored, what we are really saying is that each pup has a 50/50 chance of being either of the two. So in real life it is possible to get 100% of either, or any combination of the two.
Genetic predisposition for mouth is no different.

[SilverZuk]

I'll give you this,...any hound required and tested for 7-8 hr. hard fast hunting, is by nature more correctly built than one who is only required to "give it your best" for an hour at a time overall. Now we're not talking how smooth/rough, controled the hound is, we're talking about freedom of movement for endurance.

That is what I am talking about.
I've hunted with a variety of dogs.
The ones that "Get it done" don't look like show dogs.
They are typically longer than they are tall, have heavier frames, longer toes, and wider feet.

Lets look at the most popular field dogs today.

Kentucky Reggie - no one can argue his accomplishments in the field.
I have hunted with, judged, and seen many Turbo bred dogs run.
Reggie looks just like the good ones I have seen, and from what I have heard runs like them.
They are fast, hard hunting, run all day dogs. Some of the best dogs I have seen were Turbo bred dogs.
You can see the hare hound triats in the Turbo dogs I have seen (Speed, swing on checks, big nose, etc.)

I will post a picture of a dog of mine (He's dead now).
This dog was bred from Logan Elm Blue Rocky and AJ's Hunting Hiedi.
There is no exception in this dog's endurance, his father's endurance, his grandfather's endurance.
All the dogs in his pedigree could do it all week on Michigan hare, and come south and do it all week on WV and Ohio Cottontail.
His conformation is obviously not show dog. It would be laughable to compare him to the "Show Standard".

[marr24]

Well, if we want to get technical, the breed was originally not bred for the hunting style favored in LPO. They were originally a slow, methodical hound, closer to the style of the true medium speed gundog. The faster footed hound has been selectively bred for that speed and this is a relatively modern occurrence in the breed's history.

I have never heard of this?? Isn't it true that beagles were originally brought over from England where they were run on hare-I seriously doubt they were slow methodical hunters LOL! My goodness, it definitely isn't anything new. Large pack on hare trials have probably been in existence for nearly 100 years-read the book Wilderness Patchwork by Willet Randall and let me know if the faster dogs are a new invention.

[Honey Pot Hounds]

The show fancy will breed what it takes to win, and follow any fad or style to achieve those wins....hock walking Shepards, Labs so Fat that they would sink any Jon Boat, etc. The trialer will breed what it takes to win....Deep south SPO dogs are now fast and erratic on line and as rough as a cobb....ARHA dogs and UKC....pursue accomplishment with little regard to line control....Brace dogs are all about how slow can you go and their conformation reflects that.
Just something to think about
Betsy
(trying hard to breed something for AKC Show and AKC SPO Field!)

NOT ALL OF US!
You telling me this little bitch doesn't look like she could chase a rabbit all day? I know she could and I know she would...she just about jerked my arm off climbing up a boulder to grab a squirrel in Central Park the day before she performed beautifully at Westminster

[Honey Pot Hounds]

I will post a picture of a dog of mine (He's dead now).
His conformation is obviously not show dog. It would be laughable to compare him to the "Show Standard".

Actually his conformation is NOT that different from a lot of the show Beagles out there. His markings, the big buckle collars and the lack of show grooming are the biggest dead give aways that he's field stock. Picture him as a classic tri, groomed and positioned in a show stack and I am going to say that his size (is he over 15"?) and his tailset may be all that need improving as far as a picky show person like me will notice.
He has nice bone, he has nicer legs and angles (moderate) than a lot of the field dogs posted on this forum, he has a nice chest and neck and his head and earset look typical. Picture him tri-colored with nice white socks, groomed and stacked and he is one of the nicest Beagles i've seen posted on here.
Beautiful feet and HIS NAILS ARE ACTUALLY SHORT. BRAVO!!!!!!!
I hope you got some nice pups out of him before he passed.

[Beaglebrit]

Honeypot..Congratulations on a wonderful trip to NY. Your girl looks lovely on the table.
In my post I wasn't infering that show dogs could not run but instead that judging fads and popular styles be it in the field or in show influence our breeding decisions, and that in turn can influence the looks and talents of our dogs. A show German Shepard is not a suitable dog for attack work or sentry work due to the changes brought about by the show fancy.
Betsy

P.S. IMHOP lunging after a squrirrel while on lead is not a future predictor of field ability...but at least she has fun!

[SilverZuk]

I hope you got some nice pups out of him before he passed.

He was 14 3/4" tall. Full size, but not even close to be questionable when measured.

He died at 2 years old
(I don't know if you read about the dog being electrocuted in the pond by a shorted out pump?
That was him and about killed me and 2 other dogs).

I did breed him once to a nice turbo female. The pups turned out small and I didn't keep track of where they went.
He was really too fast for my taste, I really enjoyed that dog though. He was my wife's baby.
I wish all my dogs had his nose and brains. He was really turning out to be a nice hound.

[SilverZuk]

You telling me this little bitch doesn't look like she could chase a rabbit all day?

That is a nice looking female...
























and a good looking dog too.

[S.R.Patch]

...

[blunder]

Telling me that you would hesitate to put this Beagle on the bench?

Tell you who she is tomorrow

[buckridge]

I have bred show dogs to field dogs several times and yes it takes a few generations to get one that has good conformation and hunt.
Yes, show dogs will hunt, I have 4 that hunt, maybe not the best line dogs, but they love to hunt rabbits.

I have a female show champion that I am putting in my starting pen this spring.
You must understand the total dog.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Now, for the dog above, I would need more pics, but from what Isee, I might put the dog on a UKC bench, but not in an all breed dog show (AKC) .... please prove me wrong with some more pics and information.

Jim

[blunder]

Jim
Do you recognize the dog now?