New UKC Beagle Format

[Redtick]

I haven't seen anything about it in The American Beagler,but on page 49 of December's The Rabbit Hunter, Todd Morgan, UKC's Beagle Manager is talking about a new beagle format and Championships. According to Todd, it is going to be similar to but not an exact copy of Progressive Pack rules. And, according to Todd, "there will be two programs with dogs earning titles under completely different formats, therefore they will be completely different degrees. The Hunting Beagle program will keep the same titles, and the new program will issue new titles."
As a owner of UKC Hunting Beagle Champions, UKC Grand Nite Champions, and UKC Squirrel Champions, I feel I have a right to comment about the value of UKC hunting dog Championships. All of my dogs titles have been won under rules that only allow plus points to be given when the game has been seen and the entire cast participates in the scoring. I think rules where the game does not have to be seen and a judge off by himself does the scoring is a step back from the quality of dog it takes to win a UKC hunting dog Championship. I think it will take away from the UKC Champions who have had to produce game to be a UKC Champion.
At least there is going to be a seperate degree for these "hobby style" beagles where a 100 yard track can be declared a "dead track" and plus points be awarded. Here at Lakeland Kennels instead of getting plus points for a dead track, running a track a short ways and quitting could result in a dead dog. I believe judging a beagle more on it's track style over it's being able to bring a rabbit around to the gun is a mistake. You are not likely to see any beagles with one of these new titles here at Lakeland Kennels. If they can't produce the meat, they are culled.
I know Todd competes with his beagles. I am wondering if he is having trouble winning in events where the rabbit has to be seen so he wants a set of UKC rules his beagles can win under?

[TC]

BLAH BLAH BLAH Here we go Again!!!!!!!!
If ya Dont like it........... STAY HOME i am Sure ya wont be missed

[SouthernBeagles]

Well!!! Here we go again........................What TC said! Redtick, some times you got got to roll with the punches. I think it's a good thing cause FRANKLEY I wouldn't want a format where a good handler could beat a newbie!!!! It orta be about the dogs! You got to take the good with the bad.

WTG UKC!!!!!! The ARHA won't know what bit em! Oh, I forgot, they bit themselves!

[yellowdog]

i dont think i have ever posted on one of your threads before but here goes...i have learned alot and met some really good folks on this board...but everytime your name comes up its just controversy you complain about everything akc,ukc,nkc,pkc, what kind of message do ya think you are sending to the newbies that get on here and look around?..if got on here as a newbie i would think this great pastime was full of jerk***s like you that has nothing better to do than complain about everything and i would find another hobby...but i have been around long enough to know that there are guys like you in every sport and you are the exception not the rule...do us all a favor and find something positive to talk about or just shut up...spend more time hunting your dogs and less time complaining about trials....nuff said...tracy skiles...by the way sorry if offended any one just tired of this crap....

[MasonsBeagles]

whats it matter didnt you buy your dogs already finished? thought you didnt care about titles?

[Scuba Steve]

Dave,

Sounds like you have a personal problem with Todd. I have run with his dogs and I am willing to bet he would put his money where his mouth is and run against you any time if you want to see if they can produce a rabbit. You are a small, small man without the brains or the guts to leave your home town and prove your dogs. Call him up, I'm sure he will run against your dogs any time.

[WrongsideRandy]

Dave.....Sometimes you need to think about the big picture. If I wanted to be like you I would just start talking about how much of a "Champion" a dog really is that dont have to prove it is gunshy, dont have to solo a rabbit correctly.........and can win a degree in a hunt with 3 or 4 other dogs competing. I have long been a vocal critic of "giving" titles away like its a raffle prize. There are people who would debate you on how much of a "Champion" YOUR dogs really are.

My hats off to Todd Morgan for giving this a chance. UKC is a top notch organization and one of the oldest and most well respected kennel clubs in the world! I am glad to see that they are open to trying something new and have brought a good group of guys together to sit down and iron out the rules. I mean lets face it............there WAS ONLY 1 PP style trial and NKC had 100% of the market........from a business standpoint this makes perfect sense, and I assume UKC is in business to make money while bettering the breed, unlike NKC whom will tell you the ARHA means nothing to their bottom dollar.

You all take care,
Randy

[Incahoots]

I think it will do about as well as Large Pack/Small Pack has. Both of those on paper should do well but that's just not the case. There's no lack of people that would run LP/SP but seems to be lack of promotion and clubs willing to run these events. I think PP will fall into the same situation. I'd run in almost all the formats if the oppertunity was there but it's not and not looking to be getting better.

[Big Dog]

Good Gracious man why don't you give it a break, You have sung the same old tired _ss tune over and over again for the last 3 years and to no avail. If you don't want to run in the format then don't run in it but let those who wish to run in it do so without hearing your typical line of crap. As a matter of fact I don't think many folks on here give a rat's _ss what you keep at "LAKELAND KENNELS" Hell, you buy most of your dogs finished any way, so why should anyone that trials bother listening to you as if you have so much experience? Don't go talking about coon hounds either, we are talking beagles. You are a glutton for punishment my friend. Talk about bull headed.

Big Dog

[Redtick]

From a buisness standpoint, I can see where where UKC is coming from. It can be good buisness for them. And, like many of you have said, if I don't like it, I shouldn'y buy into it. And, I won't. As long as there is a clear distintion between the formats, I may not like the fact that UKC Champions can be made without have to prove they are actually on the correct game by producing the meat instead of getting plus points on anything that leaves a track.
Let me tell you about a beagle cast I was on Saturday. It was a Champion cast. There were 4 handlers. All 4 were disabled in one way or another. One had recovered from cancer, one had been burned up in a factory accident, one was crippled by leg injuries from falling off a horse, and I am a disabled veteran with pulmanary problems. Any one of us could have judged that cast. All of us were very experianced beaglers who knew what the dogs were doing. None of us could judge a cast where running behind the beagles is required. So, we would be at the mercy of someone who could. Do you think that any of those fellows who are making the hateful personal attacks on me on the PKC thread are going to judge my dogs fairly? Come on Southern Beagles, you and I don't agree on some things but I think you know exactly what I am talking about. And, what about this Mafia thing some are bragging about. Doesn't that suggest a conspiracy on obtaining Championships? Hey, if some of you want to make UKC Champions out of beagles I may consider half fast, trashy dogs, go ahead and do it. It certainly may draw some buisness to UKC. But my UKC Champions won their titles by being the first and producing the meat. Nuff said.
Some of my dogs were Championed by me, some were made Champions by others. I compete in 3 separate breeds Championships and I can not attend all events. Go to my web site and the dogs that have Lakeland in front of their names were Championed by me, the others were Championed by others. For many, many years I have sold pups and bought the best ones back titled by someone else. And, occasionally, I buy some outside stock to add to my bloodlines. It works for me and I am not going to change.
And, yes, as far as I am concerned, Todd Morgan doesn't follow UKC's posted rules and ethical standards. I wouldn't want to be on a cast where he carried the scorecard.

[tommyg]

From a buisness standpoint, I can see where where UKC is coming from. It can be good buisness for them. And, like many of you have said, if I don't like it, I shouldn'y buy into it. And, I won't. As long as there is a clear distintion between the formats, I may not like the fact that UKC Champions can be made without have to prove they are actually on the correct game by producing the meat instead of getting plus points on anything that leaves a track.
Let me tell you about a beagle cast I was on Saturday. It was a Champion cast. There were 4 handlers. All 4 were disabled in one way or another. One had recovered from cancer, one had been burned up in a factory accident, one was crippled by leg injuries from falling off a horse, and I am a disabled veteran with pulmanary problems. Any one of us could have judged that cast. All of us were very experianced beaglers who knew what the dogs were doing. None of us could judge a cast where running behind the beagles is required. So, we would be at the mercy of someone who could. Do you think that any of those fellows who are making the hateful personal attacks on me on the PKC thread are going to judge my dogs fairly? Come on Southern Beagles, you and I don't agree on some things but I think you know exactly what I am talking about. And, what about this Mafia thing some are bragging about. Doesn't that suggest a conspiracy on obtaining Championships? Hey, if some of you want to make UKC Champions out of beagles I may consider half fast, trashy dogs, go ahead and do it. It certainly may draw some buisness to UKC. But my UKC Champions won their titles by being the first and producing the meat. Nuff said.
Some of my dogs were Championed by me, some were made Champions by others. I compete in 3 separate breeds Championships and I can not attend all events. Go to my web site and the dogs that have Lakeland in front of their names were Championed by me, the others were Championed by others. For many, many years I have sold pups and bought the best ones back titled by someone else. And, occasionally, I buy some outside stock to add to my bloodlines. It works for me and I am not going to change.
And, yes, as far as I am concerned, Todd Morgan doesn't follow UKC's posted rules and ethical standards. I wouldn't want to be on a cast where he carried the scorecard.

BS--BS--BS!

[WrongsideRandy]

Let me tell you about a beagle cast I was on Saturday. It was a Champion cast. There were 4 handlers. All 4 were disabled in one way or another. One had recovered from cancer, one had been burned up in a factory accident, one was crippled by leg injuries from falling off a horse, and I am a disabled veteran with pulmanary problems. Any one of us could have judged that cast. All of us were very experianced beaglers who knew what the dogs were doing. None of us could judge a cast where running behind the beagles is required.

I find it interesting that you guys can stand on a road and know whats happening.......you dont have a clue what faults a dog may or may not have if you cant see it working the line and check for more than 2% of the circle, you're missing 98% of the race! I have been told 1,000's of times, and seen for myself a few times....that the race in the woods is never like it sounds from the road. You could have all kinds of things happening between jumping the meat and seeing the meat if no one is watching them, lol.

But my UKC Champions won their titles by being the first and producing the meat. Nuff said.

Your dogs may have gotten to be UKC Champions by being first in a hunt with possibly 3 or 4 dogs..........and never proved it could solo you the meat to a gun blast ..........titles are all in the eye of the beholder, to each his own I have seen too many gunshy "Champions" in my short time in trialing to put much faith in any title. As long as you are happy thats all that matters.

You take care,
Randy

[Redtick]

Randy, I know what my beagles are doing while I am standing in the road. I know what my coonhounds are doing when I am standing in the road at night. Not always, but usually. I hunt a lot, both day and night.
I am interested in dogs that produce the meat. Period. I really don't care how they do it. I want dogs that produce the meat!. Some of you guys want to put form before function. The function of a beagle hound is to bring the rabbit around to the gun. If they fail to do that, they failed to do their function. If they do bring the rabbit to the gun, then they performed their function. Giving plus points for tracks that fail to bring the rabbit to a position where it could probably be harvested is rewarding a beagle for failing to do it's function. I am against it.
You guys keep bringing up ARHA Rabbit Champion Morning Star, a gunshy beagle I owned for a short period of time. I bought Star from Tony Woodward, and sold her at a big loss to Merle Crain. Both are very well known beaglers. Ask them about her. None of her blood is in any of my dogs. None of my current dogs are gunshy. Nuff said.
Championships are in the eye of the beholder. But, there are some beagle Championships that have no value in my kennels. That's what I have been saying all along. Some people think that is bad mouthing their dog. That is their doubt they have about their dog's Championship value, I have no doubts about their dog's Championship value to me.

[mac40391]

BS--BS--BS!

And, yes, as far as I am concerned, Todd Morgan doesn't follow UKC's posted rules and ethical standards. I wouldn't want to be on a cast where he carried the scorecard.

[/quote]

SOME ONE NEEDS TO PUT THIS OVER ON THE UKC BOARD AND SEE IF OLE REDTICK IS ABOVE A LIFETIME BAN.......

[Hunter]

Redtick, All the Guys I run with will be interested in this new format and outside of trials ALL these guys Harvest Rabbits with these same hounds that they trial. You can not get any closer than that to producing the rabbit or meat as you put it. I have seen arha LP dogs that could produce the meat but usually they do not do it as neatly as the PP dogs. Good luck finding whatever it is you are looking for, Hunter

Proof is in the pictures....
http://bdfnr.home.insightbb.com/hunting.html