misunderstandings over defining your ideal beagle?

warddog · Post by **warddog** » Sun Feb 23, 2003 8:45 pm

No, Bob that is not what I said. I said I make a mental marker and walk out aways from it and then search in a circular motion from one side of the line to the other. I make my circles away from the loss as I already know that the line is not there because I don't see it and of course the hounds don't smell it. At that point of loss, I, like the hounds, have no idea where the track is so I fan out searching for it in a circle. I, like any hound at a loss is making a guess at which direction the line has progressed whether we work in or out. No need to return to the exact point of loss as we've already been there, seen that and done that and there is nothing there to see or smell or the line wouldn't have been lost in the first place. Now if that deer has stopped bleeding and layed down 30 yards from the loss or a rabbit has ran 30 yards down a dry dusty dirt road or swam a body of water into a squat then once I or the hound swings out there on our search we should be able to locate our quarry whereas the close check work hounds will not be able to overcome the obsticles and will return to the point of loss and the track will be ended.

Bob Graves · Post by **Bob Graves** » Sun Feb 23, 2003 9:43 pm

Sorry Warddog, I guess I read this wrong.

Warddog wrote: "Once I search out away from the loss several yards I then make my circle from one side of the mental marker to the other."

You said you SEARCH out away from LOSS and then circle from one side of MENTAL MARKER (Loss) to the other.

Alabama John · Post by **Alabama John** » Sun Feb 23, 2003 10:45 pm

Bob, yes there could be too much of a swing from a dog and it would be culled, but I have been referring to pack work, not individual dog work.

Here, the distance the rabbit went across water usually dictates how far they must swing to pick it back up if they cannot smell it on still water.
With a swinging pack, the loses are too short for any one dog to get too far out so that when a dog gets the check, the furtherest dog from that dog could catch up quickly and pack up.

A pack comes to a creek that is 20 yards wide. Track disappears at waters edge. They will usually be more dogs that will immediately go, wade, swim, straight over to the other side as that is the best chance that is where the rabbit went. At the same time, some run up and some down stream on this side, and those that did not find it directly across will split and some run upstream and some down until someone finds the exit track. If none is found, but, in by far most cases it is, they will come back to the water and start looking for the rabbit in the water, either by swimming all around, or by walking the banks looking with their eyes.

That to me is great pack work and shows experience and brains.

Give me an example of how a pack staying close, would quickly find this rabbits track successfully and differently from the point of loss at waters edge.

Now the water is 40 yards across, or its a dirt road with no scent, or a smoking burned out area. What distance should a smart pack raise their heads from the point of loss and swing out quickly to continue the race?

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 6:38 am

John: Now perhaps we've found where our misunderstanding comes from. IN your scenario the hounds know exactly where the pont of loss is, know direction of game, and know why they lost scent. That's not swinging! Naturally the hounds will slow their foot speed some and be checking for scent on the way across either the water or black top or whatever has killed the scent but they will not hesitate to go across if scent is not encountered on the way and search in the manner you descibe. That is much different from just swinging in a location when direction of travel and reason for the check are not know and way different from swining where the point of loss is not known.

pj: So it is your oppinion that the hounds should not even slow down when they loose contact with the line of scent but just continue on at full speed, looping till they hit the line again? Running together would be the best thing because a seen hound action is much better then describing one here. I wish we could all run together it would be so much more fun.

Bob Graves · Post by **Bob Graves** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 7:26 am

John, There is a big difference between STAYING close on a check, and Starting to WORK OUTWARD from the point of loss. If they STAYED close on a check without progress, it would be worse than swinging.

In your scenario, your hounds worked out from the point of loss and searched because as Joe said they knew where they lost it. If the rabbit had just made a 90 degree turn on runnable ground, and the pack overran, how would your pack handle the overrun?

I might add that I am in no way an "experienced beagler" but this just seems to be such a common sense thing. And PLEASE don't get the idea that I am knocking anybody's hounds.

Bob

Alabama John · Post by **Alabama John** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 7:37 am

Joe, I love it when the pack loses scent and make their scattered loops at a dead run with their mouths shut. They are working as a team but all in competition with each other. If no trail is found, then slow down and start working back inside the circle. I have said it before, that is how a lot of our rabbits get caught. When they jump, anyway they go, there is a dog that will see them and sight race into other dogs probably.
When the trail is found on that full out loop, you just hear a start up of opening and it increases as other dogs join in as they catch up and start packing.

Wish we could run our dogs together also. Not as a competition, but to show you what I'm talking about. It would have to be here in these conditions though, as they might not do as good in your environment.

We will have a Big Pack hunt here the 7th and 8th. There will be some great running and swinging on both days. I'll go as an observer and its a joy to hear that many dogs running in seperate packs, all competing within those packs, while still working together to run the rabbit.

pj · Post by pj » Mon Feb 24, 2003 9:01 am

thats the way i like them to search in the check unless the tracking wont allow, then i want them to slow down. i had a swinger that john and ted owned , if the rabbit turned topper would stay right on the line and keep it runnin...where when the other hounds got to where that rabbit turned they would break down and topper would still be goin...as this happend many of times as we would watch the rabbit turn..a witness of this was jim mcguire at his club at atlanta oh....this hound had the nose and speed and smarts but couldnt handle the heat...he was a dog that would never slow down but when he hit the line he was gone as he was a real good line dog...

lee ga · Post by **lee ga** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 9:43 am

i bet if we all watched each others hounds we would find common ground. john and warddog, what you guys just described doesn't sound like swinging to me, sounds like they are just reaching a little quicker in the check than joe's. i don't believe a hound has to work a check the same way every time. some hounds follow tracks in the snow, some air scent out of a check etc. etc. i have some hounds who can pick a check near point of loss most of the time, even on bad scenting days ,but i have other hounds who have to reach on a bad scenting day to keep themselves in the game. there are so many variables when it comes to check work that there is no way a hound will check the same way day after day. i wish mine didn't check at all. i do believe to an extent that with a big pack of hounds that are working as a unit, one doesn't have to worry as much about how a hound is getting the work done. i bet we all agree that a hound can go to far in either direction.

Alabama John · Post by **Alabama John** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 1:51 pm

Bob, on a 90 degree turn they would overrun some, shut up, scatter, swing out and circle until one picked up the track. That type of turn is more common in the bean and cotton fields as while running down a clean dirt row, the rabbit will stop, turn, face and jump 90 degrees over to the next row or several rows over.

Sometimes while running down a row, the dogs will see the rabbit up ahead when it stops to make the 90 degree turn and have a sight chase. I've never seen a rabbit being pushed hard make a 90 degree turn and run off in that 90 degree direction while wide open, far more common is a fast 45 degree ahead or less veer off.

Seldom do we see a rabbit turn back 180 degrees either as it would be looking the dogs face to face and be eaten.

This is not just my dogs that do this, several of my friends also have packs that do the same. Remember we all said "what works best in your terrain and conditions"!

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 4:02 pm

John: I'll have to admit that most of our cathhces don't occur in that fashion. Most are run stiff or run to exhaustion and caught. A few are caught by a sight chase if they are pushed out into the open pines but the vast majority of caught rabbits occur after a long run and the rabbit is spent. Except for in the pines there is not much oppertunity for a sight chase in our hunting spot.

Have seen rabbits turn 90 degrees at a full run. One memorable one did it by running down a path and then leaping on top of the brush and pushing off the top of the brush onto an intersecting trail at a club grounds. A 90 degree turn without touching the ground for 15 or 20 feet.

There is no special hound required to run in our conditions. We have good and bad scenting days just like anywhere else. I'm wondering about the conditions in your fields. If they are short enough to allow for sight chases they must dry out quickly and scenting must get tough when it gets dry.

Alabama John · Post by **Alabama John** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 6:12 pm

Joe, this is low country surrounded by mountains and all the fields are next to a strip of swamp that joins the Tennessee River. There are several hundred acres in each with just a road for farm machinery between fields and between the swamps and the fields. They go for miles next to the River and its hugh backwaters Guntersville Lake.

We run in the early mornings and it is practically always misty foggy, as any fishermen can attest to needing a moisture repellant shirt, and the ground is nearly always moist or even wet in the deep shade provided by the canopy of leaves of the beans or cotton all day, all spring and summer.

October is usually our driest month.

That's why rabbits are under the leaves and laying flat, all spread out on their bellies in the fields, its cooler there. Lots and lots of deer bed there too. See several herds I guess every day. Easy to see above the leaves and easier to break a dog because of it. Dogs run in the fields and cross the field road over to the swamps that have both running creeks going from the mountains into the River and standing water.

Up in the day in hottest summer and early fall, it does get drier and scenting gets worse so we just load up about 9-10am and come back another day in the morning.

Hope this has not been to descriptive! I guess its different from New York?

pj · Post by pj » Mon Feb 24, 2003 7:12 pm

john i wish our summers here were like that...there very dry here even at 5or 6 in the morning.... all days arent like that though but majority are...but you gotta watch for gators dont ya.. do you hav alot of poisonus snakes to..your friend josh

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 9:43 pm

John: We run on the banks of the Erie cannal. The canal is on one side and the Mohawk river is on the other. When the canal was dug they spread all the crushed shale out along the banks and although brush grows in it grass for the most part does not. It's all bare ground under the brush and water doesn't hold in it at all. Once summer hits if there isn't rain it's always dry bare rock. The shale goes for a couple hundred yards more or less in different places and down the embankement made from the shale is wet swampy land with ponds and brushy hills with grass. The scenting is generally poor on the shale but in the low areas the other side of it it's ussually wet and good running. We generally stick to the shale area for casting the hounds and the rabbits will try to stick to it but the hounds will push them out into the better area. Once had a rabbit swim a pond and my young hound swam right after him. Thought I had the greatest little hound in the world till I herd of swampers and the hounds that swim after them regularly. There's a blacktop road that runs along the canal and the rabbits try to use it to throw the hounds much like as you described earlier with water. When it's hot and dry the blacktop holds little scent and if the rabbit gets too far ahead of the hounds some more experianced rabbits turn in the middle of the blacktop to try and throw them. On the shale the snow means better scenting. We take the opposite approach that you do and prefer to run them in the most difficult conditions especially the younger hounds, so they can gain better experiance, often don't go out until later in the morning. Once they can handle the poor conditions the good scenting is that much easier for them. We have other spots that have lots of grass and is ussually better scenting but this spot is our favorite. There is about 500 acres of brush on the point between the river and canal and then there is woods and then a farm. This area is also loaded with deer and we see them often. There was a huge buck hanging there for a few years that I used to see regularly. You'd hear his antlers tinging on the brush as he moved out of the way of the hounds when they were running and we'd run to catch sight of him. Don't know what ever happened to him. The deer and rabbits use the same trails and if you want to get your heart beating fast just stand on one of them and when a herd of deer comes running down it and the hounds are coming up behind them at full cry that will do it. Don't know how many times that's happened and the rabbit was between the deer and the hounds on the same trail. Sometimes you'll see the rabbits running down the trail with two or more rabbits in front of the hounds. Had five running single file once in front of a single hound. Thought for sure he was on a deer the way he was going until I got in front of him on the trail and saw all those rabbits. Another time had a pack catch a buck rabbit out of territory and he went straight line clean out of hearing, had to be a mile, and never came back. Only way I knew it was a rabbit was because we lit out after them and caught up where they happily circled him for a good long time. Certainly sounds like our spots are different but in all honesty your hounds would run just as well here as they do there once given the oppertunity to adjust. I'd bet in an hour you'd think they were running at home. I can say that with all confidence because our hounds originated from the south and had never run on snow till we got them. Even the northern hounds don't run on snow till their first winter and experiance is all that's required.

Alabama John · Post by **Alabama John** » Tue Feb 25, 2003 8:13 am

Josh, you're bringing up the negative and I think Joe was going to breed to my favorite dog of Ted's (McBlack) to get some of that good swing in his dogs. Now he won't come down here to run.

Gators are in southern Alabama and seem to prefer day or night for house dog fluffys to come drink out of their lake. A friend in Rockford got over 20 out of his fishing lake in one year.

I think in beagles they have a hard time catching the swinging dogs as they are so scattered out looking for the rabbit trail in the water. The ones that come back to the point of loss and wad up gives them a better pick and choice !!!!!!

I think they especially prefer Coon dogs that hunt and swim at night. I don't run in the swamps at night. We all have heard of the man that tracked his Coon dog down in the woods to only find a big Gator that had eaten his dog and the tracking collar. I do not know if it is true, but, it makes a good story.

Snakes, we just take our chances and I have seen plenty bitten, but only seen a few die. None of mine personally have ever died. It's a chance you take when you run. We run.

When you walk, just keep your eyes looking up about four feet or more and you'll never see a snake!

pj · Post by pj » Tue Feb 25, 2003 7:45 pm

im sorry john ...joe will hav to learn you cant run with the big dogs stay on the porch...looks like his slow working check dogs will be eaten...josh