misunderstandings over defining your ideal beagle?
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
-
James Carman
Catching rabbits
I was just reading on page 5 about dogs catching rabbits(hares). My dogs do catch a cottontail occaisionally after running it for an hour or so. I once had a beagle-feist cross that could never keep a rabbit going that long, but he was death on catching them before they ever got up to run. The most he ever caught this way was 7 in one day. He would just sneak up on the sitting rabbit and pounce on it.
-
Tommy Oliver
Sam: there are lots of factors involved with check time, some of them unseen. You cannot judge hounds based upon check time alone. The conditions of the day have to be factored into the equation. The best method to determine if your hounds are good ones is to just keep track of how every run finally ends. If the majority of their game is accounted for, put to hole, then they are good ones. The higher percentage of rabbits put to hole the better the hunds must be.
-
Ted Peercy
- Posts: 175
- Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2002 8:23 am
- Location: McMinnville, TN
Joe,
I think most beaglers would agree that cheating, babbling, back tracking, cold trailing, ghost running, deer running, etc., are faults. However, I don't see a lot of converts on your theory about checks. How a hound handles a check is a style, not a fault. You like line control and working inside out on a breakdown. I like a dog that will swing a little on a check, claim it quickly, with confidence, and blast out with it. Your style of dog will not fit in what I enjoy doing, because it won't score enough to win in Little Pack. So if this has to be a fault and not a style, it lies in your dog for not being able to accomplish what is desired here. A good swinger is not lucky. They know what they are doing. If line control and tight check work would work better in what we do, Little Pack people would have that style of dog. The Little Pack division of the ARHA is by far the largest division in it. We aren't a bunch of fools with faulty dogs. We know what we want and they style of dog that we like. Why would this discussion have nothing to do with field trials? We seem to be dealing with a lot of opinions here, mainly yours. On a poor scenting day, I would prefer dogs like yours. But like Alabama John said, we don't go out for the bad days, we go for the good ones. Not meaning to step on any toes. Just don't like having mine stepped on. Ted Peercy
I think most beaglers would agree that cheating, babbling, back tracking, cold trailing, ghost running, deer running, etc., are faults. However, I don't see a lot of converts on your theory about checks. How a hound handles a check is a style, not a fault. You like line control and working inside out on a breakdown. I like a dog that will swing a little on a check, claim it quickly, with confidence, and blast out with it. Your style of dog will not fit in what I enjoy doing, because it won't score enough to win in Little Pack. So if this has to be a fault and not a style, it lies in your dog for not being able to accomplish what is desired here. A good swinger is not lucky. They know what they are doing. If line control and tight check work would work better in what we do, Little Pack people would have that style of dog. The Little Pack division of the ARHA is by far the largest division in it. We aren't a bunch of fools with faulty dogs. We know what we want and they style of dog that we like. Why would this discussion have nothing to do with field trials? We seem to be dealing with a lot of opinions here, mainly yours. On a poor scenting day, I would prefer dogs like yours. But like Alabama John said, we don't go out for the bad days, we go for the good ones. Not meaning to step on any toes. Just don't like having mine stepped on. Ted Peercy
Ted: certainly there are different styles of check work. Some are positive actions and some are faulty actions. Swinging happens to be a faulty hound action.
Naturally if you are field trialer you would want whatever style, fad, whatever, that is required to win at the particular type of trial you happen to be invoved in.
Hounds are perfectly capable of immediatly finding a check at the point of loss, instantly claiming it with confidence and blasting out with it; and there's no need to take a gamble in between.
This discussion has nothing to do with field trials because we are discussing hound actions and how they affect the run. If we introduce field trials into it we must then deal with whatever fad is popular at the given type of trial and location. Think your L.P. hounds would fit into brace? That's why we leave the trials out of it because then it turns to whatever they do at a particular trial instead of if the actcion is positive or negative.
Tell me what do you think dogs like mine are? If your running little pack and think you have blazing speed faster then what I run your in for a surprise. Little pack are, or at least were the last time I saw them, medium speed.
Chase: Thanks much.
Naturally if you are field trialer you would want whatever style, fad, whatever, that is required to win at the particular type of trial you happen to be invoved in.
Hounds are perfectly capable of immediatly finding a check at the point of loss, instantly claiming it with confidence and blasting out with it; and there's no need to take a gamble in between.
This discussion has nothing to do with field trials because we are discussing hound actions and how they affect the run. If we introduce field trials into it we must then deal with whatever fad is popular at the given type of trial and location. Think your L.P. hounds would fit into brace? That's why we leave the trials out of it because then it turns to whatever they do at a particular trial instead of if the actcion is positive or negative.
Tell me what do you think dogs like mine are? If your running little pack and think you have blazing speed faster then what I run your in for a surprise. Little pack are, or at least were the last time I saw them, medium speed.
Chase: Thanks much.
-
pj
joe i dont understand in the least bit how it is a fault..if a hound goes in day in and out works the check the same way its a style and not a faulty one....ill put my pup down withone of your inside out check dogs and we will see which dog comes out with the most...i consider one or two gettin lucky not gettin 50..60..70% of checks luck...just admit inside out check dogs are your style..swingers are mine johns. and teds type of dogs...how can you say our dogs are faulty..we could all say inside out check dogs are a fault cause there not as good in the check cause of there method...im with ted were not calling your dogs faulty but you bring up continusly how you think what are dogs do as a faults...as i assure you ted and john have both owned a previous dog of mine that for the first hour id put down with anything...if they remember a dog named topper
-
Ted Peercy
- Posts: 175
- Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2002 8:23 am
- Location: McMinnville, TN
Who decides swinging is a faulty action? Who decides what a gamble is? You seem to have appointed yourself to this positiion. If a hound instantly finds a loss, it isn't even a loss. Field trials ARE about hound actions and how they affect the run.
I don't know about your hounds, but I've never been to a LP trial where the majority of the hounds were medium speed. Who have you competed against with your beagles? Let's hear someone besides your wife attest to their prowess. If it's not YOUR style, it's a fad. Your dogs don't swing, they reach. Joe, you make me think of the Governor in "The Best Little Whorehouse In Texas'.
I don't know about your hounds, but I've never been to a LP trial where the majority of the hounds were medium speed. Who have you competed against with your beagles? Let's hear someone besides your wife attest to their prowess. If it's not YOUR style, it's a fad. Your dogs don't swing, they reach. Joe, you make me think of the Governor in "The Best Little Whorehouse In Texas'.
-
Tommy Oliver
Just get the Basset's I have been talking about, and this topic would be a moot point. Clean, Honest races that put the rabbit in the bag where it belongs. They do it with a good amount of speed, and hustle. They also have the muscle to last all day. No CHEATING or FAULTS here. Just plain ole good hound work. NUFF SAID!!!!!! 
Joe, if you haven't been to a Little Pack hunt in the last 5-6 years, your last assessment was probably right - they were med-fast. They aren't anymore. They are fast-fast....for the most part. many Little Pack folks are running Pacesetter, Shaker, Ace-in-the-Hole, just to name a few - and these are some of the fastest bloodlines out there in competition today - in any registry or format.
Being heavy Bramlett-bred, my 8-year-old Redd Man hound used to be considered Little Pack fast in his day. He is considered a "tweener" today. He will get picked up under a strict enough PP judge, but no way he can hang with some of the young hounds being run these days when the scenting is good. He will get his share of jumps and checks though, if it's a tough scenting day when gears are required. Those days are fewer than the good days (remember, there's not much Little Pack in NY - it's mostly in warmer climes) so if I were serious about trialing in Little Pack, Redd wouldn't be the dog I carried to the trials day in and day out. If I show up at a Little Pack trial with Redd, you can bet it's a strategic move based on cover and conditions.
All this talk about the swinging hound being wrong most of the time is probably falling on deaf ears if any of these guys have seen GRRCH, RCH (again) Cody's Sharp Jackson run - and most of them have. I believe rabbits have a unique pattern to the way they run and I believe there are hounds out there smart enough figure it out in the first part of the run and take advantage of it in the breakdowns. Maybe not a lot of hounds out there like that, but there are, and that's what most hard-core LP trialers are seeking because they do win fairly consistently under LP rules. Call it gambling or whatever, but those hounds are right more often than wrong, and when you shake all of the sand out of it, playing the odds is what it's about and the odds of winning a LP trial with a hound like Redd Man are stacked against you.
Being heavy Bramlett-bred, my 8-year-old Redd Man hound used to be considered Little Pack fast in his day. He is considered a "tweener" today. He will get picked up under a strict enough PP judge, but no way he can hang with some of the young hounds being run these days when the scenting is good. He will get his share of jumps and checks though, if it's a tough scenting day when gears are required. Those days are fewer than the good days (remember, there's not much Little Pack in NY - it's mostly in warmer climes) so if I were serious about trialing in Little Pack, Redd wouldn't be the dog I carried to the trials day in and day out. If I show up at a Little Pack trial with Redd, you can bet it's a strategic move based on cover and conditions.
All this talk about the swinging hound being wrong most of the time is probably falling on deaf ears if any of these guys have seen GRRCH, RCH (again) Cody's Sharp Jackson run - and most of them have. I believe rabbits have a unique pattern to the way they run and I believe there are hounds out there smart enough figure it out in the first part of the run and take advantage of it in the breakdowns. Maybe not a lot of hounds out there like that, but there are, and that's what most hard-core LP trialers are seeking because they do win fairly consistently under LP rules. Call it gambling or whatever, but those hounds are right more often than wrong, and when you shake all of the sand out of it, playing the odds is what it's about and the odds of winning a LP trial with a hound like Redd Man are stacked against you.
-
Tommy Oliver
With the Basset's , it does not matter what the scenting conditions are. They will run a good race with good conditions, and poor conditions. Have outstanding NOSES, and knows how to use them with out all the other stuff these hounds ya'll talk about have to do to run the rabbit to my gun so I can enjoy my Bar B Q'S. 
-
tom/ desertdog
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2003 11:18 am
- Location: laquet mo.
pj Saying a hound exhibits a faulty hound action is not exactly the same as calling the hound faulty. Splitting hairs I guess. No need to call my hounds faulty, I'll do it for you. Never has been a hound who couldn't be improved in some way. The swinger is not better at finding checks. And I'll bite my tounge now for the sake of understanding lest you get further into defensive mode instead of openminded where understanding comes from.
Ted: Nobody decided swinging was a fault; it just always was one and then someone decided to call it swinging. (I don't know who named it) Common sence should indicate that the fastest and easist place to find something that is lost, even something that is moveing because you don't know what direction it's moveing in, would be where you lost it. The gamble is trying to find something where youo didn't loose it.
Bev: Not a surprise at all. Their rules dictated that they would go that way and when the ARHA first started there were those of us that predicted this vary thing. What are the odds of winning a little pack trial with a hound that never checks? If they are fast then they must be catching or putting their game to hole quickly. But they aren't I'll bet. Their rules dictated that they would get faster and their scores would go up instead of down. That's why I kept asking about the scores on ARHA hounds earlier in this thread.
Tom: A fault is a hound action that hinders the run.
Ted: Nobody decided swinging was a fault; it just always was one and then someone decided to call it swinging. (I don't know who named it) Common sence should indicate that the fastest and easist place to find something that is lost, even something that is moveing because you don't know what direction it's moveing in, would be where you lost it. The gamble is trying to find something where youo didn't loose it.
Bev: Not a surprise at all. Their rules dictated that they would go that way and when the ARHA first started there were those of us that predicted this vary thing. What are the odds of winning a little pack trial with a hound that never checks? If they are fast then they must be catching or putting their game to hole quickly. But they aren't I'll bet. Their rules dictated that they would get faster and their scores would go up instead of down. That's why I kept asking about the scores on ARHA hounds earlier in this thread.
Tom: A fault is a hound action that hinders the run.
-
Ted Peercy
- Posts: 175
- Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2002 8:23 am
- Location: McMinnville, TN
Joe,
Open minded to you is people hearing what YOU have to say. You certainly don't hear others, you just defend what you have said.
If I was looking for my car keys, I would look where I dropped them. But car keys don't back-track 10 yards and jump 10 yards to the side, run out a log and jump 90 degrees, swim a creek, or wade water.
Who says swinging has always been a fault? The guy who started calling Beagles-Beagles? I don't think so. Swing has never been a fault with me, wasn't with my grandfather and we represent almost 100 years of this (FAD).
Scoring in a Little Pack trial will be more on a cast where the hounds have to gear down and grub a check because of poor scenting, not when they are full speed hammering one. So that eliminates your theory of faster hounds having higher scores. Yes, LP hounds (some) will swing on a grub check. But they do know and come to the point of breakdown if unsuccessful and start again. When they don't find it on that complete circle, is the only time your dogs would have an advantage.
Be open minded here Joe. Share your knowledge of beagles with us and quit attempting to force feed us. I don't have to agree with you on shock collars and swinging to respect you. But tell us what you are going to say, say it, and tell us what you said, and then shut up already. Ted
Open minded to you is people hearing what YOU have to say. You certainly don't hear others, you just defend what you have said.
If I was looking for my car keys, I would look where I dropped them. But car keys don't back-track 10 yards and jump 10 yards to the side, run out a log and jump 90 degrees, swim a creek, or wade water.
Who says swinging has always been a fault? The guy who started calling Beagles-Beagles? I don't think so. Swing has never been a fault with me, wasn't with my grandfather and we represent almost 100 years of this (FAD).
Scoring in a Little Pack trial will be more on a cast where the hounds have to gear down and grub a check because of poor scenting, not when they are full speed hammering one. So that eliminates your theory of faster hounds having higher scores. Yes, LP hounds (some) will swing on a grub check. But they do know and come to the point of breakdown if unsuccessful and start again. When they don't find it on that complete circle, is the only time your dogs would have an advantage.
Be open minded here Joe. Share your knowledge of beagles with us and quit attempting to force feed us. I don't have to agree with you on shock collars and swinging to respect you. But tell us what you are going to say, say it, and tell us what you said, and then shut up already. Ted