Thank you Lefgren-Lane, for the excellent and informative post.
Am I reading this incorrectly, or has AKC added some registration colors for the Beagle breed?
http://www.akc.org/breeds/beagle/color_markings.cfm
new beagler is confused
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
Thank you for the infoLefgren-Lane said: "Also about the white. In genetics terms white is not a color. It is just the absence of color, thus you will not see colors listed as wh/tn/blk etc. White itself is neither Dominat or Recessive, it is what we see when there is no color. There are 4 PRIMARY colors in all mammals (Black, Chocolate, Blue, Lilac). White is the absence of color and Yellow is a secondary color. Yellow comes in a whole range of shades (especially on beagles). It can be a very deep red or rust , to an extremely light almost undetectable cream, with tan, lemon, red whatever you want to call it somplace in between. There are just about a many terms in use for genetically yellow/wh beagles as ther are people to describe them. One person says a lemon has to have a black nose, another will tell you it has to be have a slate nose indicating that the hound is probably double recessive for the dilution. Another thing that confuses many is one person's Tan/Wh is another's Red/Wh, or Yellow/white or whatever. In truth all we have to remember is that a yellow(regardless of shade)/white beagle is a beagle that does not have a primary color exhibited. NO blanket, no PRIMARY colors. Let me repeat. All Tan/wh, red/wh, lemon/wh,yellwo/wh,cream/wh,rust/white, whatever you want ot describe them as are double recessive for the EXTENSION gene or "ee" which supresses, removes, does not allow to be extended the PRIMARY color.
Now I could confuse this with some info about how yellow works in some other situations or breeds but since we are talking about beagles we will just stick to what we get when the hound has the "ee" double recessive that removes or suppresses the PRIMARY (Black, Chocolate(liver, brown), Blue, or Lilac) from the coat."
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Lefgren-Lane
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- Location: MO
Bev and others, thank you for your kind words.
Bev, to the best of my memory AKC has always given about 25 options for marking beagle colors, now they may have changed some of them over the years but I think the number is about the same. We also must recognize that AKC is not an expert on the color genetics of each and every breed that it registers, and that is also the case with beagles. Also a lot of folks that register pups are new to beagles and have not followed the plan of the highest percent of color first Ex. Blk/tn/wh, or Tn/Blk/wh etc. etc. A pup that may be Blk/Tn/Wh at 6 weeks can very well be Tn/Blk/Wh by the time it is an adult. (Many beagles cotinue to become a higher proportion of tan virtually throughout thier life.) So while AKC color designations are useful they certainly should not be trusted for absolute accuracy or in many cases are they very useful to someone trying to do an accruate or farily serious study of coat color inheritance etc. EX. There are many hounds marked and often called blue ticks when they are not. They are actully black-ticks. A quick look at the nose color will tell you the truth. Blk-ticks have a Black nose, true Blue-ticks will have a slate color nose and a normally a lighter eye color. The slate nose color goes with the dilution of the black that causes the primary color to look blue to our eyes. It just drives me wild to see a ped that shows both parents as being blue ticks but the offspring is Black/Tan/White. This is genetically impossible. The offspring of a pair of blues which are double recessive for dilution "dd" (all blues are "dd" as are all lilacs (lilac the dilution of chocolate)) all must be genetically "dd" since they get one gene from each parent. If both parents are blue then neither of them can pass on the dominant form of the gene "D" which would allow the offspring to be non-diluted, or a Blk/Tn/Wh.) AKC has never made any effort to correct these obvious errors of genetics and it is an error made by many just because of the "common usage" of terms like blue-tick or red-tick to describe virtually any open marked hound with a lot of ticking. If we look at the genes that determine beagle color (there are the B,D,E, and T. some might add C to the mix) Genetically just using these 4 genes it is possible to have 81 differnet possiblities. If we look at these 4 genes and ask how many of these possible genetic combinations can we actually determine by looking at the beagle, we will come up with 16. None of this addresses any difference in color shades, degree of dilution, per-cent of color compared to per-cent white, density of ticking etc. The actual number of defined possible combinations can get very very large. Ex If we graded the percent of color on our hounds on a scale of 0 to 10 and required each hound to be marked with the whole number grade we estimated to the best of our ability, we would have 11 possible measures of a hounds percent of color. If we multiply that times the number of genetic possiblities we determine from just 4 genes, we end up with some 891 possible combinations. Add a few more genes etc. and the numbers of possibles get pretty huge. They get so large that there probably never been 2 beagles alive that were, exactly marked identically or the very same color or shade. As Patch noted a good hound is never a bad color or improperely marked. I thoroughly enjoy looking at all the beagles I see and being amazed at the variety I have see over the years. It is always interesting to see one different than any you have ever seen before and talking to the owner/breeder etc. to try and determine the few genes that the hound had to get from each parent to create such a wonder.
Understanding how Dominant and Recessives are passed on is important because many gentic canine diseases are passed on the same way. They are recessives and thus passed on just as the recessives for various colors are. A few other examples of recessives, rear dew claws, crooks in tails (can be), black air folicle alopecia, some forms of epilespy, some forms of hemophilia, Von Wildebrands Disease (a bleeding disorder in beagles), chronodystrophy (dwarfism, also in beagles), and many others. Thank goodness many of the gentic disorders are fairly uncommon. The fact that our beagles are still used for hunting helps limit many of these being prepetuated in the breed because hounds with serious genetic disease disorders normally do not perform well or last long in the field and thus are not used for breeding. The real crime is when someone knows there is a problem but outcrosses to hounds that do not have or carry the disorder, thus being a recessive it covers up the problem and others down the line unknowingly spread it further through the breed. Bottom line, if you own a hound that has a genetic disorder or if it has produced it in any of its offspring, do the RIGHT think, NEVER breed the hound or bitch either the first time or again. Either spay or neuter them or cull them, but never breed them again. Recessives to be exhibited have to come from both parents. Do not pass on your problems to everyone else if at all possible. Save them some pain, wasted effort, vet bills, etc. and do your part to keep all our hounds as sound and healthy as we can. Enough for now.
Bev, to the best of my memory AKC has always given about 25 options for marking beagle colors, now they may have changed some of them over the years but I think the number is about the same. We also must recognize that AKC is not an expert on the color genetics of each and every breed that it registers, and that is also the case with beagles. Also a lot of folks that register pups are new to beagles and have not followed the plan of the highest percent of color first Ex. Blk/tn/wh, or Tn/Blk/wh etc. etc. A pup that may be Blk/Tn/Wh at 6 weeks can very well be Tn/Blk/Wh by the time it is an adult. (Many beagles cotinue to become a higher proportion of tan virtually throughout thier life.) So while AKC color designations are useful they certainly should not be trusted for absolute accuracy or in many cases are they very useful to someone trying to do an accruate or farily serious study of coat color inheritance etc. EX. There are many hounds marked and often called blue ticks when they are not. They are actully black-ticks. A quick look at the nose color will tell you the truth. Blk-ticks have a Black nose, true Blue-ticks will have a slate color nose and a normally a lighter eye color. The slate nose color goes with the dilution of the black that causes the primary color to look blue to our eyes. It just drives me wild to see a ped that shows both parents as being blue ticks but the offspring is Black/Tan/White. This is genetically impossible. The offspring of a pair of blues which are double recessive for dilution "dd" (all blues are "dd" as are all lilacs (lilac the dilution of chocolate)) all must be genetically "dd" since they get one gene from each parent. If both parents are blue then neither of them can pass on the dominant form of the gene "D" which would allow the offspring to be non-diluted, or a Blk/Tn/Wh.) AKC has never made any effort to correct these obvious errors of genetics and it is an error made by many just because of the "common usage" of terms like blue-tick or red-tick to describe virtually any open marked hound with a lot of ticking. If we look at the genes that determine beagle color (there are the B,D,E, and T. some might add C to the mix) Genetically just using these 4 genes it is possible to have 81 differnet possiblities. If we look at these 4 genes and ask how many of these possible genetic combinations can we actually determine by looking at the beagle, we will come up with 16. None of this addresses any difference in color shades, degree of dilution, per-cent of color compared to per-cent white, density of ticking etc. The actual number of defined possible combinations can get very very large. Ex If we graded the percent of color on our hounds on a scale of 0 to 10 and required each hound to be marked with the whole number grade we estimated to the best of our ability, we would have 11 possible measures of a hounds percent of color. If we multiply that times the number of genetic possiblities we determine from just 4 genes, we end up with some 891 possible combinations. Add a few more genes etc. and the numbers of possibles get pretty huge. They get so large that there probably never been 2 beagles alive that were, exactly marked identically or the very same color or shade. As Patch noted a good hound is never a bad color or improperely marked. I thoroughly enjoy looking at all the beagles I see and being amazed at the variety I have see over the years. It is always interesting to see one different than any you have ever seen before and talking to the owner/breeder etc. to try and determine the few genes that the hound had to get from each parent to create such a wonder.
Understanding how Dominant and Recessives are passed on is important because many gentic canine diseases are passed on the same way. They are recessives and thus passed on just as the recessives for various colors are. A few other examples of recessives, rear dew claws, crooks in tails (can be), black air folicle alopecia, some forms of epilespy, some forms of hemophilia, Von Wildebrands Disease (a bleeding disorder in beagles), chronodystrophy (dwarfism, also in beagles), and many others. Thank goodness many of the gentic disorders are fairly uncommon. The fact that our beagles are still used for hunting helps limit many of these being prepetuated in the breed because hounds with serious genetic disease disorders normally do not perform well or last long in the field and thus are not used for breeding. The real crime is when someone knows there is a problem but outcrosses to hounds that do not have or carry the disorder, thus being a recessive it covers up the problem and others down the line unknowingly spread it further through the breed. Bottom line, if you own a hound that has a genetic disorder or if it has produced it in any of its offspring, do the RIGHT think, NEVER breed the hound or bitch either the first time or again. Either spay or neuter them or cull them, but never breed them again. Recessives to be exhibited have to come from both parents. Do not pass on your problems to everyone else if at all possible. Save them some pain, wasted effort, vet bills, etc. and do your part to keep all our hounds as sound and healthy as we can. Enough for now.
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Lefgren-Lane
- Posts: 135
- Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 1:56 pm
- Location: MO
Lefgren-Lane
FANTASTIC
This is how we LEARN
Thank you for this wonderful Post
With your Permission I would like to add this Illistration to our Website I have only Seen it Done a few times and think that A lot of Folks Could learn from this Post!!!! as well as your Quote Above on the Genetic Disorders.
This is WHY we test all our Hounds and track them through thier lives Watch them Grow and develop. Do your research!! Look at the lines!! ASK around Just cause they are winnin in the trials and in the Ring DONT Mean they are the best!
Again Dan and Nancy
THANK you
this is what educating and sharing is all about!!!!!!
Understanding how Dominant and Recessives are passed on is important because many gentic canine diseases are passed on the same way. They are recessives and thus passed on just as the recessives for various colors are. A few other examples of recessives, rear dew claws, crooks in tails (can be), black air folicle alopecia, some forms of epilespy, some forms of hemophilia, Von Wildebrands Disease (a bleeding disorder in beagles), chronodystrophy (dwarfism, also in beagles), and many others. Thank goodness many of the gentic disorders are fairly uncommon. The fact that our beagles are still used for hunting helps limit many of these being prepetuated in the breed because hounds with serious genetic disease disorders normally do not perform well or last long in the field and thus are not used for breeding. The real crime is when someone knows there is a problem but outcrosses to hounds that do not have or carry the disorder, thus being a recessive it covers up the problem and others down the line unknowingly spread it further through the breed. Bottom line, if you own a hound that has a genetic disorder or if it has produced it in any of its offspring, do the RIGHT think, NEVER breed the hound or bitch either the first time or again. Either spay or neuter them or cull them, but never breed them again. Recessives to be exhibited have to come from both parents. Do not pass on your problems to everyone else if at all possible. Save them some pain, wasted effort, vet bills, etc. and do your part to keep all our hounds as sound and healthy as we can. Enough for now.
Lefgren-Lane wrote:OK. I promised a marked pic of shoulders etc. Let me see if this works.
[/url]
FANTASTIC
This is how we LEARN
Thank you for this wonderful Post
With your Permission I would like to add this Illistration to our Website I have only Seen it Done a few times and think that A lot of Folks Could learn from this Post!!!! as well as your Quote Above on the Genetic Disorders.
This is WHY we test all our Hounds and track them through thier lives Watch them Grow and develop. Do your research!! Look at the lines!! ASK around Just cause they are winnin in the trials and in the Ring DONT Mean they are the best!
Again Dan and Nancy
THANK you
this is what educating and sharing is all about!!!!!!
From Field to Show and Show to Field the way it should be
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Lefgren-Lane
- Posts: 135
- Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 1:56 pm
- Location: MO
TC, thank you and no offense but I would just as soon the pic etc. was not posted on a persons personal web page Nancy and I have always had a goal of using it or a modified version on our own, if we ever get the time, money etc. to put one together. If you want to link to this thread with Bev's permission I would think that would be just fine.
Another thing, I should have changed or modified the words attached to the photo. The picture etc. were put together more as a training tool and an example for new or prospective judges etc. rather than an example to be used as excellence or perfect conformation. I have pictures of better hounds that her, they are just not marked. Today Nancy and I would both add some things and probably make some slightly different comments and point out some other items of interest. Nancy put this together in the fall of 1998 soon after Daff was drafted to us from one of the National Beagle Club Registered Formal Packs. Over time we all usually add to our knowledge base so some changes would be appropriate. This particular bitch is not AKC Registered and has NO blood or hounds from North America in her pedigree. She is registered with the National Beagle Club and also the Association Of Masters of Harriers and Beagles in the UK. She is pure UK Pack Beagle. Her sire came from a pack in Central England and her dam while bred in the US, both the grand-parents were imports from other packs in the central UK. She is 10 years old now, (3 in the picture), about 13 and 1/2 inches at the withers. She is very very tight mouthed. Far too tight for any Field Trial format I am aware of. The tight mouth is not a fault and even desireable for many Huntsman and Pack Masters. She is very cold nosed and for the most part is an air scenter versus a footprint tracker. It virtually takes a sight chase before she will open once she annouces a find. While searching she "quarters" like people describe good bird dogs doing. Her conformation is pretty good, but certainly not perfect. She would score about the mid- or low-eighties if scored against the AKC Standard. (There are better hounds out there running in all kinds of formats, especially ARHA LItle Pack, AKC Large Pack, UKC, in the NBC Formal Packs and above all in the UK Packs registered with the Association of Masters of Harriers and Beagles in the UK.) Again no offense intended and I hope you understand.
Another thing, I should have changed or modified the words attached to the photo. The picture etc. were put together more as a training tool and an example for new or prospective judges etc. rather than an example to be used as excellence or perfect conformation. I have pictures of better hounds that her, they are just not marked. Today Nancy and I would both add some things and probably make some slightly different comments and point out some other items of interest. Nancy put this together in the fall of 1998 soon after Daff was drafted to us from one of the National Beagle Club Registered Formal Packs. Over time we all usually add to our knowledge base so some changes would be appropriate. This particular bitch is not AKC Registered and has NO blood or hounds from North America in her pedigree. She is registered with the National Beagle Club and also the Association Of Masters of Harriers and Beagles in the UK. She is pure UK Pack Beagle. Her sire came from a pack in Central England and her dam while bred in the US, both the grand-parents were imports from other packs in the central UK. She is 10 years old now, (3 in the picture), about 13 and 1/2 inches at the withers. She is very very tight mouthed. Far too tight for any Field Trial format I am aware of. The tight mouth is not a fault and even desireable for many Huntsman and Pack Masters. She is very cold nosed and for the most part is an air scenter versus a footprint tracker. It virtually takes a sight chase before she will open once she annouces a find. While searching she "quarters" like people describe good bird dogs doing. Her conformation is pretty good, but certainly not perfect. She would score about the mid- or low-eighties if scored against the AKC Standard. (There are better hounds out there running in all kinds of formats, especially ARHA LItle Pack, AKC Large Pack, UKC, in the NBC Formal Packs and above all in the UK Packs registered with the Association of Masters of Harriers and Beagles in the UK.) Again no offense intended and I hope you understand.
No Problem I understand perfectly! I really like the illistration Of the Angles of the Front, We have tried to explain this to many And An Illistration Would be Perfect to help them understand Better what we are discribing JC has been Working on Something Like it and i am Sure will finish it in Time.(maybe a Sketch LOL)
Thanks again for the Post. As far as The hound not being Perfect WHAT hound is???
TC
Thanks again for the Post. As far as The hound not being Perfect WHAT hound is???
TC
From Field to Show and Show to Field the way it should be
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Montgomery Tony
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- Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 6:23 pm
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Montgomery Tony
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The diagram will help me alot in trying to figure out where to line up the feet while attempting to show a dog. My next question is at what position should the head be ,I have heard alot of different answers on this. Patch I HAD SOME PRETTY GOOD RACES WITH MY OLDER DOGS THE YOUNG ONES DID NOT DO SO WELL BUT I HAD A BLAST.ALSO BOUGHT A NEW DOG YESTERDAY. Oh I almost forgot one of the fellers I work with shows coon dogs been getting soome pointers from him.One of the terms he keeps using when looking at coon dog pictures is that dog sure does cat up good.Not sure what that means I have been meaning to ask him but it keeps slipping my mind,when I am around him he is one of those fellows with plenty to say.I call his type a little on the mouthy side.
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run'em ragged
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Lefgren-Lane
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There are 3 genes at work. The "B" for Black is dominant. (the recessive of "B" is "b" which if you have "bb" is a chocolate. To have a Blue which is the dilution of Black the hound has to have the double recessive "dd". "D" is dominate and means no dilution. "d" is the recessive and causes dilution. "T" for ticking (or mottling as its called in the UK) is the dominate. "t" or the recessive is no ticking. So a true Blue tick will hae the the 3 gene pairs (one from each parent) of B?/dd/T?. The "?" indicates that the second gene in the pair can be either dominate or recessive. If recessive then while we can not see it the hound is a carrier. A Black ticks 3 gene pairs are B?/D?/T?. Bottom line whenever we talk about Blu or Blk ticks, Red ticks, and yes even Lilac ticks we are talking about the effects of 3 different genes, what we see is the result of how they interreact with eachother to produce what our eyes see, or the phenotype. There is a lot of info on the net on these subjects. A brief search on Google on canine color genetics will provide a lot of info.run'em ragged wrote:I've seen crosses where one parent is ticked (not sure if blue or black) and the other a tri and all offspring turn out to be blue or blacktick, how does this happen if dilution is recessive? or is the gene that causes blackticking dominant?
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Lefgren-Lane
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- Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 1:56 pm
- Location: MO
Here is a picture of a hound that is pretty well stacked. Try to position them so that you have a vetical line from the rear hock to the table, in front keep the front feet under them and position them so that it looks like there is a line from the wihters(top of shoulder) to just behind the elbow and keep the front as straight with toes pointing square as you can. This hound has his head in a pretty good position although his neck is at a bit too high an angle. You want the neck to have na angle with the body of about the 10 o'clock position. In this pic his is about 11o'clock. We placed this one as a pet and in hindsight I wish I had kept him. Pic form 1998.Montgomery Tony wrote:The diagram will help me alot in trying to figure out where to line up the feet while attempting to show a dog. My next question is at what position should the head be ,I have heard alot of different answers on this. Oh I almost forgot one of the fellers I work with shows coon dogs been getting soome pointers from him.One of the terms he keeps using when looking at coon dog pictures is that dog sure does cat up good.Not sure what that means I have been meaning to ask him but it keeps slipping my mind,when I am around him he is one of those fellows with plenty to say.I call his type a little on the mouthy side.
Here is a picture of a hound "catted" up. You often see guys doing this to hounds shown on the bench at both Foxhound and Coonhound trial bench shows. They tickle the belly to get them to arch up their back. This should never be done to a beagle (or anyother hound as far as I'm concerned). Both the Beagle and Am Foxhound Standard call for a level back with a slight arch over the loin. By pushing their back up you create a fault or at least the image of one. Keep their back level. (Back-the part of the topline from just behind the withers to the end of the ribcage.) The second picture is one of our Walkers that is not "catted up". He is 3 years old.
This is a 6 month old Am Fxhd (Walker). "Catted up."
Bartender TXV "Toaster" (I wish my beagles were all minatures of him
even though he is an Am Foxhound instead of English.)
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TonyMontgomery
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Thanks for all of your help Lefgren-Lane. I may have some more questions in the future. I really don't like the looks of a dog all catted-up. I like them looking more natural with a straight back like you were talking about. Maybe your tips can help me be a better competitor. Now all I have to do is find the perfect dog and I will always have fun trying. Thanks again.
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samlyn0001
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- Location: New Hampshire
- Contact:
What color do you consider this hound? Black and Tan or Black, Tan, and White???
RR's Black Mount Chief - AKA Meatball!!!!
DOB - 9/11/04
This pic was taken at five and a half months old....
I have a couple pics trying to teach him to stack, but forget it, way too much energy for me to be tugging on 24 lbs at that time.....
RR's Black Mount Chief - AKA Meatball!!!!
DOB - 9/11/04
This pic was taken at five and a half months old....
I have a couple pics trying to teach him to stack, but forget it, way too much energy for me to be tugging on 24 lbs at that time.....
Ridge Runner Beagles
http://www.geocities.com/samlyn0001
http://www.geocities.com/samlyn0001
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samlyn0001
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Also was wondering what color you consider this pup to be? He has changed alot since registration. Will put a couple pup pics of him, then let know what he looks like now.
Ridge Runner Beagles
http://www.geocities.com/samlyn0001
http://www.geocities.com/samlyn0001