friend in sport tom 
misunderstandings over defining your ideal beagle?
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
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desertdog/tom
perfect,perfection
mr. webster also says-[perfect, complete in every detail without defect, flawless.] joe guess you got a point too . but is is friend in sport tom
friend in sport tom -
Alabama John
- Posts: 2116
- Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:56 pm
- Location: Pinson, Alabama
Joe, they were already running and winning in Brace trials with dogs that ran so slow that you could keep up with them crawling on your all fours in 1950 thru 1952 in Alabama.
The trials brought over 200 dogs in the 13 inch classes and same in the 15 inch classes. Last year I went to one of their trials and they had a total of 16 dogs entered.
I still have one of my dogs papers from back then when we had some AKC dogs. They were all brace bred.
You're right though, in most litters they would have to cull some of the pups because they ran way too fast for trialing and were suited for hunting. The speed even slow back then, was a bullet compared to what they run now.
There was an exception that was the talk of Alabama and the Southeast and that happened from a kennel near here. All the pups from one litter made Champion and I saw them all run. One was my favorite, and I remember his name, Noccalula John from near Gadsden, Alabama by Noccalula Falls. The friends I have now that run brace, call them a "Hobby beagle" and really enjoy them, but, they have a lot of breeding problems due to too close of inbreeding and linebreeding to accomplish this abnormal slowness and closeness.
They hunt with me and my dogs.
The trials brought over 200 dogs in the 13 inch classes and same in the 15 inch classes. Last year I went to one of their trials and they had a total of 16 dogs entered.
I still have one of my dogs papers from back then when we had some AKC dogs. They were all brace bred.
You're right though, in most litters they would have to cull some of the pups because they ran way too fast for trialing and were suited for hunting. The speed even slow back then, was a bullet compared to what they run now.
There was an exception that was the talk of Alabama and the Southeast and that happened from a kennel near here. All the pups from one litter made Champion and I saw them all run. One was my favorite, and I remember his name, Noccalula John from near Gadsden, Alabama by Noccalula Falls. The friends I have now that run brace, call them a "Hobby beagle" and really enjoy them, but, they have a lot of breeding problems due to too close of inbreeding and linebreeding to accomplish this abnormal slowness and closeness.
They hunt with me and my dogs.
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desertdog/tom
john like i stated earlyer that is how i got my first start in beagles, bye those guys culling the ones that where to fast . and something else i rember very well was that most of the dogs that they did keep wound"nt hunt . the people in the cast would jump the rabbit and yellout talleho . and the dogs were brought to the rabbit. i don"t know if that was the way it was where you are at but in washington state. anyhow the club i went to it was that way,
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Alabama John
- Posts: 2116
- Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:56 pm
- Location: Pinson, Alabama
Tom, you're right, hunting was not allowed. Your dog and another dog was drawn for a cast number and everyone got in a line and used their Tally Ho sticks moved together beating the bushes until someone spotted a rabbit and yelled Tally Ho. Everyone stopped and the next numbered cast came up and had the option of accepting the rabbit or not. No one wanted one that ran back through the beaters, but ran in unstomped ground. Other casts that were to come up soon were following the beaters with their dogs on leashes waiting for their rabbit and cast number to be called. The two dogs were unsnapped when they both showed they smelled the rabbit and everyone crowded around to watch the judging and the dogs.
The cast was over in 10 minutes or less at the descretion of the judges. Once they determined an obvious winner, the time was called and the dogs picked up. and usually with running of 10-30 feet. They run less distance today. I saw a cast run less than 5 ft in over 10 minutes at a Championship trial. I'm not kidding!
The ones that won their cast came back in the 2nd series and the winners were judged in their places by that series.
These dogs have had all the hunting ability bred out.
THEY ARE BRED TO NOT EVER SWING!!!!!!
The cast was over in 10 minutes or less at the descretion of the judges. Once they determined an obvious winner, the time was called and the dogs picked up. and usually with running of 10-30 feet. They run less distance today. I saw a cast run less than 5 ft in over 10 minutes at a Championship trial. I'm not kidding!
The ones that won their cast came back in the 2nd series and the winners were judged in their places by that series.
These dogs have had all the hunting ability bred out.
THEY ARE BRED TO NOT EVER SWING!!!!!!
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Robert W. Mccoy Jr
- Posts: 420
- Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2003 1:57 pm
- Location: Canton Michigan
Unbelievable
I would have fell over laughing after seing that.
Yep I will stick with dog's that I enjoy hunting over.
If the never make in trials oh well.
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desertdog/tom
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MSB
private@aol
cold trailg. Old scent and Faint sent. Now tell me how a dog would know the difference, either way he would be opening on a line that he probably will never run. They are one in the same and there is no way to prove different. 
If a dog does not have enough brains not to open on a line that can not be ran then opens a lot he is cold traing. Now if he pops off 1 or 2 times but can not do nothing with it and moves on to hunt elsewhere it shows he was smelling game but knew it was not runable. 
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desertdog/tom
i don't understand question or your answer .to me one dogs cold trail might be anothers good trailing track a cold trail may just go25 yards or so .then jump . it happened to me just yesterday. one of my dogs opened ,the other 2 diddn"t even know there was a track there. he went about 25yards. all 3 jumped and went out of there pullen hair i shot the rabbit first circel it made.
John I reckon your right about them being slow way back then down your way. The change didn't happen over night and just like trials today they probably differed at least some from one place to the next.
When the breeders went to breeding them slow they intentionally bred poor conformation to slow them down and the emphisis on slow was so strong that most everything else was tossed out the window. When breeders start breeding for only one trait there are bound to be problems but you are right it was the line and intense inbreeding that was used to set the slow trait that actually ended up causeing all the other problems. They inadvertantly, and even on purpose sometimes, set those bad qaulities along with the slowness.
When the change over to slow started your right and they did cull those that were too fast to hunters.
desertdog ditto the no hunt here. That's the way they still do it in brace.
John: Come on now those brace hounds are way more faulty yhen a hound who only swings granted but how could they swing when they don't ever run?
msb: ever see on a poor day and the rabbit gets too far ahead of the hound and the line turns cold but they work it up again within 5 minutes and warm it up. That's a cold line but the hounds not cold trailing. (see description of cold trailing in earlier post) Hounds can do many things that seem fantastic. How do they tell the difference by scent of one rabbit over another? How do they make a 90 degree turn at a dead run without skipping a beat? How do they switch from sight to nose without skipping a beat after a sight chase? How do they run by scent alone at all?
When the breeders went to breeding them slow they intentionally bred poor conformation to slow them down and the emphisis on slow was so strong that most everything else was tossed out the window. When breeders start breeding for only one trait there are bound to be problems but you are right it was the line and intense inbreeding that was used to set the slow trait that actually ended up causeing all the other problems. They inadvertantly, and even on purpose sometimes, set those bad qaulities along with the slowness.
When the change over to slow started your right and they did cull those that were too fast to hunters.
desertdog ditto the no hunt here. That's the way they still do it in brace.
John: Come on now those brace hounds are way more faulty yhen a hound who only swings granted but how could they swing when they don't ever run?
msb: ever see on a poor day and the rabbit gets too far ahead of the hound and the line turns cold but they work it up again within 5 minutes and warm it up. That's a cold line but the hounds not cold trailing. (see description of cold trailing in earlier post) Hounds can do many things that seem fantastic. How do they tell the difference by scent of one rabbit over another? How do they make a 90 degree turn at a dead run without skipping a beat? How do they switch from sight to nose without skipping a beat after a sight chase? How do they run by scent alone at all?
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desertdog/tom
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PJ
i read all of this conversation man joe thinks he knows on how a dog should be...i personaly seen somedays a swining dog will kick the crap out of a tight check dog 50% of the time.. the other 50% on a hard tracking day a tight check dog will win on a track , but how can you say a fast dog that swings will screw up a race as i see it sometimes a tight check dog cant keep up and hangs up and screws up a race.....but me personally i dont care for a tight check dog i want to see hard hitting action, preferrd to slow point of loss check work...but thats my opinion as opinion are like a#sholes everyone has one. that is my point of view....god bless
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desertdog/tom
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snowshoehareguide
- Posts: 393
- Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2002 7:52 pm
- Location: brownington vermont
if joe was a hound
if joe was hound id be proud to hang my collar on him. i dont quite agree with a lot of what he says but there aint no quit in him. pete
desertdog: I'd agree 100%. An intelliget hound who has all his tools won't run the same way in all conditions nor even work a check in the same way in all conditions. They're smart enough to do what is needed under the conditions of the day.
pj: There is no doubt that a swinging hound can kick the crap out of a hound who does not swing if that hound is faultier still in another way or lacks in some other way; (lacks nose for example). But if we take two hounds who are equal in every way except that one swing and one does not the swinger will loose.
If the tight check dog "hangs up" he's faulty too; (If I understand your meaning of hangs up correctly that is). They must reach when neccissary but never anchor. Over thirty years ago I was treated to running with the fastest hound I've ever seen. She was also the first hound that I'd seen that ran an entire race without a single check or even a perceptable hesitation from the jump till the rabbit was holed, solo. She was fast as we describe fast and would probably be a 10 for those who use the number system to describe hound speed. But the important part was not her foot speed. It was her line control. It was her line control that allowed her to run check free even at her blazng speed. She is one of the reasons why I don't equate line control with foot speed; that is, I don't think of hounds with line control as neccissarily slow. She was one of the three top line control hounds I've ever seen and she was also the fastest hound I've ever seen. I could not tell you about her check work because in the few rabbits I'd seen her run she never had one in my presence. Nor was she the only hound I've ever seen capable of check free runs. I've had the pleasure of seeing quite a few check free runs including hounds so severly whipping their pack mates (all good serviceable hounds, my hounds in fact) that the other hounds in the pack were never a factor and never saw the front of the pack. They never had the oppertunity because the leader never checked or had a perceptable hesitation from the jump till the hole. I've also seen under certain conditions hounds completely whipped by the hound who was running in the back of the pack. That is when the front runners would check the hound in the rear would not and just run right threw them. Lest you think she was slow she was not and in fact was the only hound I've ever seen who actually out footed my pack so badly that they dropped out of the race of their own accord to find their own rabbit. And at the time I had a pretty good well balanced and well oiled hunt pack. The thing was she adjusted to the exisiting condions better then the other hounds.
Now we've been talking faults but instead of comparing one faulty hound action against another faulty hound action I compare the hound who exhibits that faulty hound action to hounds I've seen as described above.
pj: There is no doubt that a swinging hound can kick the crap out of a hound who does not swing if that hound is faultier still in another way or lacks in some other way; (lacks nose for example). But if we take two hounds who are equal in every way except that one swing and one does not the swinger will loose.
If the tight check dog "hangs up" he's faulty too; (If I understand your meaning of hangs up correctly that is). They must reach when neccissary but never anchor. Over thirty years ago I was treated to running with the fastest hound I've ever seen. She was also the first hound that I'd seen that ran an entire race without a single check or even a perceptable hesitation from the jump till the rabbit was holed, solo. She was fast as we describe fast and would probably be a 10 for those who use the number system to describe hound speed. But the important part was not her foot speed. It was her line control. It was her line control that allowed her to run check free even at her blazng speed. She is one of the reasons why I don't equate line control with foot speed; that is, I don't think of hounds with line control as neccissarily slow. She was one of the three top line control hounds I've ever seen and she was also the fastest hound I've ever seen. I could not tell you about her check work because in the few rabbits I'd seen her run she never had one in my presence. Nor was she the only hound I've ever seen capable of check free runs. I've had the pleasure of seeing quite a few check free runs including hounds so severly whipping their pack mates (all good serviceable hounds, my hounds in fact) that the other hounds in the pack were never a factor and never saw the front of the pack. They never had the oppertunity because the leader never checked or had a perceptable hesitation from the jump till the hole. I've also seen under certain conditions hounds completely whipped by the hound who was running in the back of the pack. That is when the front runners would check the hound in the rear would not and just run right threw them. Lest you think she was slow she was not and in fact was the only hound I've ever seen who actually out footed my pack so badly that they dropped out of the race of their own accord to find their own rabbit. And at the time I had a pretty good well balanced and well oiled hunt pack. The thing was she adjusted to the exisiting condions better then the other hounds.
Now we've been talking faults but instead of comparing one faulty hound action against another faulty hound action I compare the hound who exhibits that faulty hound action to hounds I've seen as described above.
For Joe West: You say you think Lon Watson might have left trialing in disgust. I have read the book by Holcombe and other writings by Watson. In the back of my mind there has always been an inkling of the opinion that Mr. Watson might have had a hard time with getting beat. Even though he had a "top shelf" breeding program. It has been said by some that Sport could have finished in the field also. Aways will wonder which side of sword cut here: ego or politics.
Breed swinger to swinger and you eventually have hounds being run by the rabbit! All about that gray matter called BRAINS. The Boogie admirers and lots of warped ideas on breeding and running methods sent the Brace hound over the edge. I think Boogie was good, just used wrong.
Men say the change happened here in the Southwest when the first brace trials were held as opposed to Large Pack in the early 60's.Up till then, judges rode horseback to the hounds on Jacks. Barb wire was tied down on post at crossings and marked with flagged cane poles for judges on horses to cross. Up till 60's they were, at times, running jacks to kill in front of these packs. Lots of brace & Amawalk blood was used in these pack hounds.
Breed swinger to swinger and you eventually have hounds being run by the rabbit! All about that gray matter called BRAINS. The Boogie admirers and lots of warped ideas on breeding and running methods sent the Brace hound over the edge. I think Boogie was good, just used wrong.
Men say the change happened here in the Southwest when the first brace trials were held as opposed to Large Pack in the early 60's.Up till then, judges rode horseback to the hounds on Jacks. Barb wire was tied down on post at crossings and marked with flagged cane poles for judges on horses to cross. Up till 60's they were, at times, running jacks to kill in front of these packs. Lots of brace & Amawalk blood was used in these pack hounds.