misunderstandings over defining your ideal beagle?

[Joe West again]

Bev: Cold TRAILING certainly is a fault and never have I seen the cold trailer able to majically smell a rabbit that another hound with a good nose could not. Ran with cold trailers in the past and never was outjumped by them n dead of winter.

But I'll say this perhaps people beleive they need a specialist because the good serviceable hounds that are capable of doing it all have been replaced by the specialists. That's what is available and that's what people beleive all hounds are so they naturally think that's all a hound is capable of. And of course there are field trials and if your involved with them you'll need a diferent hound then what another trial might need. Along those lines Bev read your akc standard for judging and it will describe a hound who if you get one fairly colse will be able to perform well weather on rabbit or hare in any part of the country where they occur naturally. Won't need any specialist at all. Sure maybe some folks might like another hound that doesn't do quite as good a job but tht doesn't change the fact that that hund is not needed.

[Robert W. Mccoy Jr]

Now I understand what your running in.
yes that is the case for me.
I run in urban areas that rarly offer an oprotuinty for a dog to run a rabbit down.
Yes we have cought a couple but it doesn't happen offten.
Like you said due to terrain and holes ect.
I think maybe it would be differant if I was able to run in a larger more open areas.
Like a cultivated field or somewhere like that.
Yes I run my dog's almost every day for atleast an hour some dyas two to three hours.
Then I hunt them on the week end's all day.
And I usually get a week or two off during the winter that I run them all day every day.
During the off season I still continue to train.
Summer time we run at night.

My finished dog's are definatly run.
I think they are decent hounds.
Maybe not all of them are fast enough or snapy enough to trail.
But I mostly gun hunt and I keep dog's based on there gun hunting merits.
I'd say mine are the top side of medium and have alot of hunt.
Most of them are all out of the same blood most of you guy's are running..

[Robert W. Mccoy Jr]

I too hate cold trailing.
I don't mind a hound popping off a couple times then jumping a rabbit in that area a few minutes later.

But I will not keep a dog that will tongue on track continuasly and get my hole pack distracted...

[Chris]

NYH, I've agreed with you from the start. Anyone with any experience running them knows the deal. That's the point: I couldn't let what Rebel said slide, because folks who haven't run them before would get a completely wrong impression.

Joe, the world isn't as cut and dried as you're making it sound. You're not even really considering what folks are saying before you come back and tell us why we're cockeyed. Especially that last post of Bev's -- I've read it and don't see how a reasonably prudent person could surmise what you did from it. John nailed it at the beginning of this thread about you being the consumate debator. :-)

Know what they call it when a lot of people debate like this?
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Mass-debating.

I think that's just about what it amounts to. LOL

Keep smilin' and enjoy your dogs.

[DESERTDOG]

all seriousness aside ithink you all got some real good ideas. everone just needs to get on the same page. the idea to me is to take my beagle out or beagles, and have a good race and injoye my dogs. if you want to run[peanut rollers] ithink one said, wild runners slow ,med, or fast. or vw runners, iliked that one, it is up to you. what aint up to you is what i like and what i run. sounds to me like some of you have had to change hat sizes . sense this topic started. agood dog is agood dog judge um fault um ,cull um but keep at it

[Joe West]

Chris: Maybe you missed my point.

The world may not be so cut and dried but faulty hound actions are. It's really just as simple as the action interfears with the run or it does not. Swinging, cold trailig, pottering, backtracking, running hit or miss, etc.... all interfear with the run; period. Cut and dry. The extent that each fault interfears with the run depends only upon how strong the fault is in the individual hound. That is, how bad the hound is with the fault

The fact that someone might say that a fault is a good thing is disturbing at the least. The fact that more then one person would promote a fault known for at least 100 years (maybe 1000) to interfear with the run is mind boggling to me. I could understand if one said "this is a darn good hund but his fault is he swings" but to say you prefer them to swing or "they need to swing" is, well, ignorant.

[DESERTDOG]

sounds like someone is kinda thin skined, at leese we know who the bigger hat fits. :oops i still say if you were to judge a dog the way it was intended, as a hunting dog under hunting condishtions. whitch i think that is bye the rules of most trials.aperson wood be far, far ahead. mabe i am all wrong, and i would like to here it if so. i dont think anyone said they liked faults. not anyone, but for someone to say what they think is right and everone else is wrong, kinda silly. but this sure has been fun and ihave learned alot. i guess i just want tuna that taste good not tuna with good taste. l. o . l good beagleing

[warddog]

Mr. West, Please enlighten us on the scientific basis of your assertion that these hound actions are in fact all "FAULTY". I would be very interested in reading a synopsis of the documentation you use to objectively compare these hound actions and classify them all as "FAULTS". If you are not using the rule book then what are you using as a comparison for your objectivity. If a hound action has been known as a "FAULT" for 100 or maybe 1000 years then please tell us where this research has been documented and conferred with by a group of beagling peers and or verified by scientific methods. To make a statement without an accepted objective standard to compare it to is nothing more than a hypotesis, theory and an unproven assumption. I have read numerous articles on the beagle history and have found no performance standards for hound actions but I have found the Official Breed Standards which I believe are recognized by about all of the registries. The only thing that I have seen in the Official Standards pertaining to running actions is under the charactistics which states that a beagle is a merry hound whose essential function is to hunt, PRIMARILY hares, by following scent. I have never seen any such Official description of the terms you use such as swinging, cold trailing, pottering, backtracking, running hit and miss or interfering with the run. If this be the case then when your dog stops and takes a pee or poop after opening on track is that also one of your "FAULTS"? I would say by your defination of a "FAULT" it would be as it would interfer with the run and if my dogs didn't stop to take care of business then mine could account for more game. Without an accepted, objective set of performance standards to use as a measuring tool for all hound actions, such as those recognized by beagling peers, known as the Official Breed Standards or any registries TRIAL RULES, as Chris alluded to, any hound action that is classified as a "FAULT" is purely subjective and an opinion, as the different registries don't even agree on a universal performance standard. It has been said buy numerous beagling peers on this thread that a "FAULT" is in the eye of the beholder and without a universally accepted standard or set of criteria to judge them by they are merely a subjective personal opinion lacking scientific credibility or even a mutual agreement. I am sure Mr.West that a deer burner would be a "FAULT" for you as it would for me but to the deer running beagler it would be what they were looking for and we have our opinion of it. One person's trash is another person's treasure.

[Bev]

What he said.

[DESERTDOG]

ya what she said he said

[Alabama John]

Joe, you have drawn me in this so I'll try to give an example that might explain our swinging thinking. It's not so ignorant as some might be pigheaded.

Lets think of a pack situation instead of a one dog running situation. That might be the difference in our thinking. We never run a small pack, much less one dog.

I have five dogs and you have five dogs running all together. The 10 dog pack overruns while running wide open down a cow path from where the rabbit angled off half left oblique ( Joe's a navy man) for a 10 yard overrun as an example.

All dogs stop and mine scatter in five spaced FORWARD directions and angles each trying to pick up the rabbit before the others to have the front as long as possible. Yours on the other hand wheel around 180 degrees and head directly back the 10 yards or more from where they stopped the overrun SEARCHING, scattered, each individually looking for the point of loss. Yours overran the 10 yards too, so they have no idea where it is (It is not marked on the ground with an orange ribbon cross, so they have to search for it but going in the opposite direction from mine and by the way, the rabbit). If yours do not find the line quickly, by your own admission, they will reach, not swing?, to look further, remember, they are correctly reaching out, but, in the backward direction.

Both packs are searching and reaching for a lost line, but in opposite directions!

One of mine swinging forward finds the line 10 yards out from the stopping of the overrun, the other four were unsuccessful this time in their search but they hark to the winner and away they all five go. Yours turn from their position now 30 yards behind, mine 10 + 10 = 20 forward and yours 10 at least plus whatever the reaching distance in the wrong direction backward, and race to get to mine that are now running wide open.

Or even worse, because of the distance between them, your five stay together and keep looking.

Which PACK is faulty and hindering forward progress to the gun?

[DESERTDOG]

very will said john . ican see that hat size going down alittle . isen"t going the wrong way kinda like back tracken

[Bob Graves]

WOW! Great discussion, so I might as well chime in here.
1. I clearly see the difference between "swinging" and "reaching". I would prefer the reacher 100% of the time, it would just up the chances of finding the intended game quicker or AT ALL.

2. A fault is a fault, and there should be no defending it, and more admitting it. If it is not helping the run, it's hindering it, and if a hound is "SWINGING" it's taking a chance on losing the line all together if it doesn't run into it again. If it is "REACHING", it is at least in the area of loss looking for the track.

3. It's always better to look for something that was lost, right where you you lost it. There is a better chance of finding what you lost.

Just my opinion.

"Run em if you got em"

[snowshoehareguide]

i would like somebody to come hunting with me this thursday or friday . i want to do some hound judging. im not much of a shot and a dog to catch the hare would be handy. i have one that will retrieve it so thats no problem. i will never understand how a dog can run a hare below zero on crust will not cold trail when its good running . i define cold trailing as a dog following a track in the right direction and jumping it.or even running way behind a hare cause the snows so deep hes just swimming in it . if its solid crust and 0 and dog is a minute behind he is cold trailing in my book. in 3 feet of powder he may be 5 minutes behind. or maybe ten , this is cold trailing or very close to it. ok i guess it depends on what you call cold trailing. ive seen some people call a dog cold trailing cause their dog couldnt run the same track. i hunted witha dog a couple weeks ago that will bark real steady 5 minutes behind a hare when its 20 below zero. was he cold trailing. ? i dont know but a few times saw what i thought was a stray and hed come right thru on them way behind but barking like he was going to kill them. there was just too much snow for him . scent was good so he had to bark. id call him a good dog and ive seen him run when most would seek shelter. i like to hear a dog bark. if my dog is following a track he can move i expect him to bark. i consider cold trailing a good thing. different from a boo hooing idiot that never goes anywhere. 3 feet of powder snow and its 0 degrees you think your dog can catch a hare . id like to see it. i guess i understand the difference between swinging and reaching. swinging is reaching too far. what one calls reaching may overlap what some call swinging and thats why the big argument. and to say a dog running cotontails in a briar patch on an acre of ground and a dog running swampers or hare that may go a 1/2 mile or a lot more more should run same style seems ridiculous to me. anyways i sure wish i could see some of these dogs go im hearing about . i can hunt most any week day now thru march 9 . i really prefer to see them go in temps at or near 0 . anybody has a dog runs on the really tough days i can learn to like their faults . pete

[Beagleman973]

I have to defend Joe as I agree a fault is a fault......PERIOD!!! As far as going my breed standards, you're talking apples and oranges. We're not talking showing, we're talking trailing. How can ANY thing that causes the run to be disrupted not be considered a fault. Granted, there are varying degrees of faults, some swing more than others, some babble more than others.

I think, and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth Joe, but I think what Joe is saying, many times we live with certain faults because the other good qualities outweigh the bad. I have a little male, fantastic jump dog, usually runs close....but put too much pack pressure on him and he starts skirting, trying to stay in the lead. This is a fault folks, he's off the line trying to get in front. Without the pressure, no problem. But like it or not it is a fault! But to me his other good qualities outweigh the bad and I just try to avoid pressuring him with large packs. The rest don't have that problem so in that case he stays home and they go. BUT......you have to recognize the fault. I still wouldn't get rid of him. ANYTHING that causes the run to be disrupted, creates checks, or if the hound isn't on the track by swinging.....is a fault. I won't go into the definition of reaching I think that has been done!

One last thing, I don't think I have ever had a hound stop and take a dump or pee in the middle of a chase. And I have followed many a chase Before or after, but never during. Yeah.....call me crazy, but I wouldn't like that either, and to my way of thinking that' a fault too! Guess I've been lucky not to have a hound do that!