misunderstandings over defining your ideal beagle?

[Valpoguy]

If you're kenneling a pack of hounds, you're obviously happy with what you're feeding and caring for, otherwise you'd be changing dogs. Whether people admit it or not they are primarily hunters or trialers. Trialers rarely give up a trial to go hunting, hunters would rarely give up a day of hunting for anything. Trialers are concerned with conforming to a winning style, hunters would place accomplishment over style. The harshest judges I know are named Federal, Winchester, and Remington/Peters. Good running to all of you.

[tnbeagleman]

Here is a measuring stick!!! The dog that brings the rabbit back close to the originial jump point is the dog with the least number of faults. If the dog swings, slices , cuts and cheats but can get the bunny back to the gun he has won the race. The slow speed of the other hounds is the fault in this situation. If he cuts , swings and loses the line and the slower dogs bring the rabbit around the cutting, slicing, swinging was the faulty dog. Sometimes them bunnies just out smart the hounds and a lot of times the hounds and bunnies both are smarter than the hunters.. HAHA You can call me dumb but leave my dogs out of it. Here is the true answer WE need to really enjoy these dogs most of them are giving us their very best effort and if they are we should be happy and ask ourself this question.HAVE I ALWAYS GAVE THIS HOUND MY BEST EFFORT OR DID I JUST WANT TO DO SOMETHING ELSE INSTEAD OF WORKING MY DOG. Hey; this is a good thread got us to thinking . I sure would like that faultless hound and maybe" IF" I become perfect I'll get it.

[Joe West]

Warddog: A fault is a hound action that interfears with the run. Don't need anything but to observe the hounds to figure out if a certain action is hindering the run. So you see faults are vary important to we hunters because hounds that exhibit them are less likely to bring the rabbit to the gun. That is, a faulty hound cannot account for as much game as another hound who is less faulty. You may or may not care to know why some hounds can account for more game then others but many of us do and the study of faulty behavior tells us why a hound fails.

Chris:cute but still haven't herd from you how swinging doesn't interfear with the run. I was in a rush when I posted last and forgot to ask you, do you only run when scenting is good? what about when scenting is only fair or how about not good at all. Do the hounds have to slow down under poor scenting conditions or do they just go as fast as their feet will carry them. Your definition of hound speeds such as 7 or 9 mean little to me because I don't know how fast your 7 or 9 is. To me a nine might be so fast that he'd consistantly put a rabbit to hole in only one or two circles on a good scenting day. But on a poor scenting day there is no way he'd be able to go that fast and maintane contact with the line of scent.

One more thing. A swinging hound is not in contact with the line of scent and has no idea which direction the rabbit went nor even if the rabbit continued on and is not sitting tight close to where the check occured. How does a hound run a line of scent that he is not in contact with?

I'm glad I was able to help you with understanding the difference between a swinging hound and a hound that is reaching. Every novice beagler should at least have a modest understanding of the differences between those two hound actions because one promotes the run and the other interfears with its successful completion.

bowhunter: I don't reckon I care a bit what type of hounds someone wants to keep. That in fact isn't what this discussion is about. This discussion is about hound actions and ablilities. Some hound actions promote a run and some hound actions interfear with a run. If someone likes a hound that exhibits hound actions that interfears with the run I would fight for their right to keep those hounds; but, I don't see any reason why those same hounds should not be called faulty when they are in fact faulty.

[swing]

Joe has been smoked by a swinger and has a hangup about it.
Trent

[bowhunter59]

i do believe that !!!!!!!!!bet my swinger sry i mean reacher jump more rabbits than his liner!!!!!!

[Bev]

Aw now don't be that way guys, lol. Joe likes what he likes, just as others like what they like. I can't blame him for wanting to promote a clean-working, med-fast hound. They never embarrass a person when they're put on the ground. Joe doesn't trial so he doesn't breed for an "edge". He breeds for what he likes to hunt with. Trent, you remember Gale? Joe's bloodline would run similar to her and you were never ashamed of Gale. He doesn't run peanut-rollers by any means.

I think everyone's tolerance for "fault" can be very different. None of us would keep a hound that was so rough it flat messed our pack up every time out, but we might give a little on line and overruns as long as we could kill rabbits and enjoy a good race. I can only think of a couple of people I know personally that likes them as rough as they come and as cheatin' as they come......and they will admit to that.

Joe, correct me if I'm wrong, but the point I understand you to make is that we ALL have faulty dogs (since there are no perfect dogs) but the degree of faultiness tolerated is what sets some of us apart.

[Joe West]

Bev: Read these posts carefully includeing your own and see if you don't see something disturbing. Hunters don't breed for the edge. Line control means slow. As if a hound can't be fast and control the line. Post after post of beaglers defending a faulty hound action. Trying to find some way of excussing a fault for one reason or another and foot speed is all they can come up with. Accurate does NOT mean slow it means accurate. Pottering is a major fault and you'll not find me defending it for any reason. Slow is a fault; it is the only hound speed that is a fault.

At what speed does a faulty hound action turn into a positive hound action? Is swinging okay for a 9 but not a 5? What numbers mean they are fast and what numbers mean they are medium or slow? If a hound runs at a 9 under good conditions does he run at a nine under poor conditions? If so how many rabbits will he account for under poor conditions? If he does't run at a 9 under poor conditions but must go slower what number is acceptable for him to slow down to. If he does slow down must he also stop the swinging when he does? At what number must he stop swinging?

Yesterday was the first day since some time in December that we've had a crust on the snow. Solid crust with thin granular on top and high winds. Each time the wind would gust particularly hard the hounds would check; what would happen to a swinger under those conditions? What would happen to a slow hound under those conditions? Or a hound who fails to adjust his foot speed down to suit the existing conditions? The answer is the same, they'ed all fail.

No hound can run the exact same speed every time out. Speed is not an excuse for a fault. Nor is fault free an excuse for pottering.

One will never seek to improve his hounds so long as he has an excuse for their faultyness.

[Chris]

Is swinging okay for a 9 but not a 5?

I thought we agreed that your term of reaching and my term of swinging were the same? Contrary to your belief, it's not all about speed. If the 5 can circle rabbits when the 9 can't, then it's the 5 that I want. But, all things being equal, I prefer an 8 or 9 that runs a smaller percentage of the line (but still keeps the rabbit up) over a 5 that runs nearly all of the line. It's simply better for hunting (plus, it's a lot more fun). Throw all your definitions and theories out the bloody window and see which dogs can cut it in the field. The true test is whether or not they keep the rabbit up. Why isn't that enough for you? You're just as hung up on speed as everyone else, just in the opposite direction.

Chris:cute but still haven't herd from you how swinging doesn't interfear with the run. I was in a rush when I posted last and forgot to ask you, do you only run when scenting is good?

Yes Joe, I only run when the scenting is real good. That's why I've run all around the country looking for stud dogs that can handle cold, old snow, and do it without being a babbling idiot. *sarcasm* There was one guy (a NY cop if I remember correctly) that said he'd call me as soon as he got his January work schedule, so that I could see his two breadable 15" males -- I guess he was all hot air.

Accurate does NOT mean slow, it means accurate.

That's not entirely true. I've never seen a hound that was fast (what I'd call a 7 or above) and as accurate as your yelling for. I've heard rumors about such dogs and their lineage, but every time I try to witness it for myself these dogs are busy watering their goldfish.

It depends solely on your definition of 'accurate'. I contend that a certain amount of accuracy is enough (whetever the scenting dictates). Re-read my analogy of the 7 and 9 from earlier. I said it precisely the way that I meant it.

[Alabama John]

Joe,
in my original post I said that we all like what works well in our area and in our conditions.
Note that we do not have the difference in weather that you have and we do not have snow of any kind. Its interesting to me to hear you folks from the North discussing the differences in snow. I thought it was all SNOW, period.
We do have better scenting days and worse scenting days. If you want to see ours really run, come down this spring and summer and see them run in the bean fields where scenting is much better than it is in Winter.
Our dogs adjust as needed. They do not run as fast on the bad days but still run faster than a slower dogs they usually run faster than when conditions are real good.
The slower dogs do not run better than the faster dogs when scenting is bad as I think you sermise. I do not think nose and speed are not related, in fact, I think they are. Some dogs run slower because that is all their nose will let them do, and others run slower due to their physical capabilities.
How many times have you seen a dog built like a greyhound and state how fast it must be to only see it walk a track due to its nose limitations.
And then we've all seen the squatty short legged brace beagle looking one that could and would fly and everyone love to see it outdistance the big boys. My friend has a seven year old female just like that and we set up anyone we can to run against her. He's made a lot of money with her racing.

[Bev]

(This is going to be a small book)

Joe, I've read the posts and I don't see anything disturbing. I see some people confused now, that weren't when the thread started. I know some folks think you run peanut rollers because of your description of line control. It's a fact that your bloodline is descended from a more conservative (for lack of a better term) line of hounds than many of these folks. Footspeed IS relevent (even though I've seen rough hounds that fall into my idea of the slow end of medium speed). If a 6 ft overrun is an unacceptable fault in your book, then speed is absolutely relevent. The law of physics will dictate that to a large degree.

The fact that you bring up "fast AND accurate" as often as you do leads me and others to think you believe those hounds to be uncommon - therefore, their hounds must not be fast AND accurate (by your terms) - making them faulty beyond acceptance or functionality. I'm concluding that you don't venture out much with your hounds as far as leaving New York, and I'm guessing the few trials you've been to were also there in New York, but you do yourself a disservice by not getting out there and seeing what folks are running these days. Fast, accurate hounds are not uncommon at all.

As far as breeding for an "edge", allow me to use a bitch here in the kennel as an example - one that Chris had the opportunity to see run under some unfavorable conditions. He can attest (actually he got it on film) that she will get down and walk a check if need be, grub one out, she doesn't swing or reach prematurely - but on a drive she can absolutely smoke anything you have in your kennel right now. How do I know this? I know her bloodline and I have a good enough idea about yours. She was bred primarily for that trialing edge of speed on the drive and the brains to know when to use it, but she also makes one heck of a gundog. Where does the difference in footspeed come in? She runs to catch - she runs as much line as possible in order to catch. I know a good steady med-med fast hound with good attention to the scent line will eventually run a rabbit to death. They run them stiff by constant pressure. Well, she does too - she just does it in fewer circles than those hounds and rabbit isn't necessarily stiff yet, lol! There are a lot of people out there who want the 3-circle hound over the 5-circle hound. How much more accurate could a person possibly want? Does she overrun? Occasionally......a few yards. Is she back on that line before the rest of the pack can get up to her point of loss? Yes. She was bred to both hunt and win trials. You may not like this bitch but I think her to be almost perfect. There are folks that definitely put the "trialing edge" first and foremost in their breeding program since the gunning part is rarely affected. The type of edge may differ from person to person, depending on what registry they patronize or you wouldn't see terms such as "a competitive 13" if they didn't. It's absolute folly to think these same hounds aren't also hunted over and bring a lot of game to the owner's stew pot. What amuses me sometimes is on one hand you will appear critical of trialing and those who breed for trialing, but your bible for performance in your own kennel is the AKC Standard for judging beagle field trials as written by Lew Madden.

Geography, game and climate will always dictate what sort of hound succeeds with the least amount of effort, and it's not the "one glorious standard of hound" that will do best under any circumstances - I don't think that exists yet. It can't. I've gotten several hounds from WV and every last one of them hunts like a bird dog. They traverse a narrow path ahead of us. It confused us why they did this at first. Living on flat land, we want them to hunt out a bit, not cut a path for us. After talking with a few WV beaglers we understand. "Hunting out a bit" to them may mean getting way down in a holler and they don't want that, so the hounds are bred and taught to traverse the high land.

So that brings me to what I think is the crux of your last post. Fault, and degree of fault is in the eye of the beholder. People aren't really making excuses for fault. They are offering up reasons why the run the style of hound they do. It may come across as defense of fault, but I think it's just plain ol' defense. Until you bring your hounds to their mountain and run, you'll never fully understand that what you consider to be a fault is actually an asset for them - whether field trialing or hunting. I've found that people don't go out of their way to find faulty hounds - they settle into what works best for them.

Off topic but didn't want to leave it out, Chris ran 2 young hounds while he was here - their first days on cottontail, 8 degrees out and a light powder snow. They did very well adjusting. You could almost hear those little brains clicking as they shifted themselves for a different game. I didn't find them to be rough or slow, they ran as fast as their experience allowed and their tractibility and handling is unmatched in my experience. I'd like to see them again as 4-year-old seasoned hounds.

[REBEL]

Fantastic topic,i am really enjoying all this,and most may disagree with me untill they have seen what i call a rabbit hound good enough to have a home in my kennel,now i do have some at present from other bloodlines that does not exactly come up to my standards that are here for one reason or another but in hopes someway they can compliment when breed.I will not have a hound that can not run the line and keep the rabbit in front of them untill killed or caught and here we have cottontail and swampers and the swamper is the hardest,my opinion,to run due to their abilities to out smart hounds,swim and out foot most.Hare,snowshoe rabbits are not that hard to catch,i sent two,what i call med speed hounds to Richard Smoker that did not have the speed my hounds have but had hunt close to mine,other words they were rabbit dogs,they caught 5 snowshoe,or so Richard e-mailed me and said,their first day out and never been hunted on anything but cottontail and swampers.I have allways breed my hounds on the edge,nose and foot speed to compliment each other and i have had a few,far and few between,that went over the edge and anyone breeding to this level of hound will have at times,but my hounds can run in any terrian and conditions and i have in the past proven it,be it sand,snow,thick or thin briars,brush open fields ect.my hounds will gear down and up,but most important to me,they will without any help what-so-ever get their game up and moving and will hunt on their own or with you if you are in the field with them.I free run my hounds most the time,that is,turn them lose and let them roam and hunt 24 hours a day,especially when i have young hounds that need the rabbit tracks,yet when i am ready to go with them they seem to enjoy my company,as if to say,let me prove to you how well i can run rabbits.I like a run to catch hound,run the line,no shirting or swinging,that can air and ground scent,run by sight and run day or nite under any conditions and they had best in order to be considered good enough to meet my requirements,fantasy hounds??no way-do i trial and have FC's??no way,i have well breed hounds in my kennel with lots of red in their pedigrees but they are the ones i bought and hope can compliment my bloodline,do others have hounds like mine??yes but far and few between and i am in constant search of those type hounds.I have said all this,i guess,to say a fault is a fault,no matter if you have rabbit hounds or trial hounds and i enjoy field trials to fellowship with other beaglers but usually here in the Deep South SPO is the first to be picked up cause of speed,example-a couple years ago had this female that was so far ahead of the pack the judges said they picked her up cause she was so far ahead the other hounds could not hear her,the rest of the hounds you could throw a blanket over and was runing the same path my hound was leeding them,she had one check where the rabbit doubled on her and she passed the pack going in the other direction,i ask a couple guys did they see my hound and the rabbit and they were laughing and said yes and when they saw her she had her nose on the rabbits rear end pushing the rabbit,she was so close-i went home early.You guys have a great day and great running-this is my book-hope ya'll enjoyed it.

[MSBEAGLER]

Interesting reading. Different parts of the country has a different meaning of what degree of a fault is acceptable or is it really a fault. Some of you guys correct me if I am wrong but running hare is about like running deer down south, meaning they give off more scent than our hillbillies, they run really big circles and straight long runs at times not like
our hillbilles which squat, dive, dart, double back and that is done in a 1/4 acre brair patch so thick the dogs crawl on their bellies at time to keep the rabbit moving. Now there is noway you can compare faults to a dog that runs a hare in more open country to a hound that has to fight the brairs off to keep moving. The biggest fault I see in a lot of bloodlines is lack of hunt, in other words they have been breed down so as not to run offgame that their desire to catch and overtake is not there. Any beagle can trail a rabbit, to some degree, but not all can run to catch and overtake. No matter what anyone says some faults as man sees them will be in any dog, simply because man made the rules not the dogs.

[Robert W. Mccoy Jr]

I'm reading your posts.
let me first say i enjoy reading them because they are well writtin and you both are making some solid points and respecting each other.

But since I do not know the blood you are running can you list some of the differant blood lines or a couple pedigrees as so I can better understand the type of blood your talking about.

I know for instance all Hair breed or cotton tail breed dont run the same but a mention of some differant blood lines would be usfull here I think.

Only if you have the time.
thanks,
Rob

[DESERTDOG]

:i am sure i havent had dogs as long as some of you have,(got my first beagle in 1959). but iwell tell you one thing if you got adog that you can be there buy&see as much as you are claiming then in my book you got way to slow of adog, or you got a dog that carrys a boat anchor and can stop on a dime to me there is nothing prettyer than adog swinging reacheing or what ever you want to call it, and picken up that rabbit and running the hare off it iguess i better get me anew hunten coat with biger pockets so i can carry all thease notes and rule books on how a dog is to run arabbit oops:

[Alabama John]

I was invited to go hunting with some men I work with and at one of their uncles farm. When we were ready to turn loose, a beagle came ambling up to our truck. The farmer said it was his and he would put him up if we wanted him to as he ran too fast for rabbit hunting. We looked at each other and slyly grinned and said it would be OK for him to come. He hunted and jumped the first rabbit, ran it fast enough that he out distanced our fast hounds so bad they were not opening but running silent chasing him and in less than one full circle he caught the rabbit ate it and went back to his house to hunt no more.

Moral? Fast enough to be able to find others to make a pack. You would never find those to run with that dog. I in no way think our dogs are the fastest there is. I have had to sell a couple of dogs to those here that race them for money because they were too fast to pack with.

Rebel, had that happen to me at a Little Pack trial last year where my dog ran off from the others so far the other dogs came back so the judge called her running off game. We could hear her running solid all during the cast and near the end of the cast here she came by wide open and we all saw the Canecutter she was running. The judge and the rest of us laughed and he apologized as he said he thought she had to be after a deer to run that solid and fast. She finished last. That's the breaks sometimes in trialing. A lot of these stories depend on who else was drawn with you in a cast. She would not look so fast if some I know of had been with her in that cast.

I have a brother that runs medium dogs and we hunt them either morning or afternoon and mine different from them. We kill a lot of rabbits from them.
He had his down all morning and we had just put them in one side of my dog box when a hunter came up, visited, and remarked that he had fast dogs and said my brothers were the slowest dogs he had ever heard run a rabbit. That insulted my brother so he forced the man into a bet and reached in MY side of the box, drew out Queenie and Maryanne and said these are very tired, but we'd still run them against his. My brother said our dogs gear up to what ever they are run with, they have "GEARS". he lifted my dogs ear flap and whispered in our dogs ears loud enough for the man to hear, "get out of second gear and put it in fifth gear" In the end, after running off and leaving that mans dogs bad enough to shame him, he wouldn't take the mans money, but left him believing he had seen the best gearing dogs ever.

Its all about having fun and enjoying what ever you like.