Field Trial Ponderings

[mybeagles]

Not sure it would be fair to make a guy from Georgia or Mississippi drive north to snow country to validate a dog in conditions it never runs in.

Regardless if a dog validated with AKC I would want to see it run before breeding to know it's what I'm looking for.

I like the idea though

[Hare Chaser]

Me either. Did you notice I didn't say anything about hare, snow or Northern areas?

The guys in the south can face as harsh a conditions as we in the north do. Extreme dry conditions, heat, water, etc., etc. A true FC should always be a good gun dog where it s hunted the most but really should be able to bring game to the gun no matter where it's put down given a chance to acclamate to the environment if it's out of its normal climatic range.

So I suppose in the south perhaps their harshest conditions could likely be summer running? Don't know. I've only run in the south once and that was in April of 2012. Spring I guess, though it felt more like summer compared to the Northeast!

[SNOWDOGS1]

Dave is right about over competitive hounds being a big impediment when running on tough snow conditions. At snow trials, in those conditions especially, it takes good judges to weed out the disruptive hounds and try and get a smoother pack if possible. In some snow conditions, it might not happen at all. Those of us that hunt in those conditions I'm sure have seen days where you might have to get down to one dog to run a hare and sometimes one even struggles and can't get it done. If you are looking to produce a good winter hound, I don't believe looking to field trial hounds will help you much there. I'm sure there are SOME trial dogs that are good snow hounds, but that is a completely different animal than field trials promote. Some snow dogs with the type of nose necessary cold trail and open early especially on bare ground which will get you tossed in a field trial. Finding a hound that can get it done on tough snow without a little baggage is kind of rare. I have seen some that fit the bill and were adequate on snow and also did well in field trials. That has been the type of hound I have always looked for. I have gone through a lot of FC bred hounds and have only come up with a few in my years of owning hounds. There are plenty northern hunter/trialers and just hunter/pleasure runners that are always in search of that type of hound. Problem is that those hounds usually are not for sale and pups from them are in local demand where they don't need to be advertised and many of us never know about them. Pups from them are even a crap shoot. Reproducing the nose, brains to handle that kind of nose and desire and toughness to run in deep snow is the hardest combination of traits to come up with IMO. Good luck in your search Dave. Let us know how you make out.

[warddog]

One of the best,well thought out and phrased posts on this subject I've seen!!
Many of the things you bring out are why I as a serious beagler,pleasure runner,gun hunter have never become a serious field trialer.
No knock on them,just never turned my crank in a big way.

My sentiments EXACTLY. Some have stated that they do not consider me an experienced beagler even though I have followed hunting hounds for about 55 years. I guess if one doesn't trial beagles they are not experienced beaglers even though they may have been to a trial or two or even watched numerous videos. I will guarantee folks that following a hound for pleasure and in a trial is two completely different things as they are hunting for totally different reasons. I spent a lot of nights following coon hounds both for pleasure and trialing to realize that when the official score cards came out a lot of the owners put on a completely different face. It took me quite awhile to find out that if a guy was gonna go to a trial and think his hound was gonna be judged like a pleasure hunt then that guy wasn't gonna win much. I have never in my life ran behind a single hunting dog to tell what they were doing and if you aren't strapped upon their back you are still only making an opinion and we all know what opinions are like. I will also say that even though I am NOT an experienced beagle I do NOT need to see a dog for hours in numerous different trials to tell if it is something that suits me. In the end that is the one and only judge that matters because they are ALL just dogs and like people, I have NOT seen a perfect one without fault(s) yet and doubt I ever do.

[Shady Grove Beagles]

Snowdogs1
Your proceeding post is a good one.Obviously you've "been there and done that".
Something I think we should keep in mind. Rabbit hunting with beagles is still very popular throughout many parts of the United States.But,I bet that if there was a way to know you would find that field trialing makes up a VERY small percentage of those who keep beagles for rabbit hunting or just pleasure running.
I grew up in New England hunting with my dad and his friends who had beagles when I was a young teenager and continued to rabbit hunt throughout the following years.But, it wasn't until I was in my 40's that I EVEN heard about beagle clubs and their field trials and then finally went to see one.And that was the same for all the rabbit hunters I knew.
I moved here to Tn. 22 years ago and found the same thing.I'd say 90% of the rabbit hunters I bump into in the field,at the hunting supply business,at the Co-Op,etc.don't trial,have never even been to a trial and in fact look down their noses when you mention trial dogs.They are just good old boys that rabbit hunt and breed for the characteristics that fill their game bags.
All that being said--- I will go out on a limb and say that probably a very high percentage of the folks that frequent this site,other beagle sites,subscribe to beagle magazines and are regulars at beagle competitive field events; hunt,trial,breed,stand at stud,buy,sell and promote "field trial" hounds or hounds coming from a field trialing background.
It goes without saying that those hounds dominate the "buzz" when it comes to hound recognition.Why would it be any different? They are the ones that are promoted in magazine ads,magazine covers,magazine articles,inter-net conversations,on the General Services board and their accomplishments posted in multiple formats.
Look at some of the most popular studs on this General Services board,I just did.Wow, 40,000 , 50,000 and even 60,000 views.How many of those folks will breed to one of those studs and yet NEVER and I mean NEVER go and see that hound or his pups run a rabbit? Many will read the stud ad as gospel or just assume that because he's a field champion or that he's obviously so popular on the inter-net that he must be exactly what they are looking for. Not taking in to consideration that that hound may very well be the result of a concentrated effort to breed hounds to excel. in THAT particular format.Don't think that is being done? Don't kid yourselves; just look at Large Pack,Mid-West and U.B.G.F. and then compare.
There was a hound that I had seen and judged on several occasions.This hound is in the A.R.H.A. Little Pack Hall of Fame for both competition and reproducing.I personally with my very own eyes have seen this hound lay down it's own lines and run it like it was looking at it.Shoot over the end of a check wide open and keep tonguing for a 100 yards never putting the brakes on while another hound turned where the rabbit turned.This dog was extremely competitive,a slasher,hooker,cutter and anything to get or keep the front.This hound was one of the more well known,highly promoted,talked about hounds of it's time and folks were lining up to get pups out of it.That was probably 15 years ago and to this day I've heard people say"that must have been one heck of a dog".
Really? That was the faultiest big name/ well known dog I ever personally witnessed . And not just once. I wouldn't have that hound or one like it for anything.
In my humble opinion none of the field trial formats that I have participated in be it Large pack on Hare or swampers,A.R.H.A. Little Pack or Mid-West S.P.O. accurately represent "a rabbit hunt" of the kind myself or other hunters I've run with over the past 50 years have.Trials are fun and enjoyable for many and I have enjoyed them to a degree over the years but do they really test for the traits that the serious gun hunter may need? I don't believe they do.
I'm not knocking field trial hounds as some of them have proven to be exceptional and I'm proud of the ones that show up in my beagles background.But please--they are not the Holy Grail.

[SNOWDOGS1]

I agree with you Dana. I certainly know more hunter/pleasure runners than trialers nowadays and i do know a decent amount of trialers also. Years back I fell into the hype of FC titles to a degree when looking for a pup, but I did see some offspring from most of those hounds run in trials and usually based my ultimate decision on what I saw. These days I would at least want to see a hound run under hunting situations on snow before making any decisions. There are a few houndsmen that share similar taste in hounds as me that have earned my respect that i would trust their judgment for the most part also. That being said, I have still certainly made my share of mistakes over the years, but I want to believe I have learned from them. One thing for sure, there is no such thing as a perfect hound just some are better than others. Take care!

[BMBeagles]

This topic is more beneficial to the breed than someone buying a dog they know little about and offering it to the public at stud ! He won this or did that !!! What a pedigree !!! Let see what he throws !!!! No i wont let you run with him, Its up to you to bring a first class bitch or you can buy a pup out of my top notch females !!! I have a bunch of them !!! Male pups only for sale !!! .... get it now ??? Some on here will show there males not many ! Ive tried also

[Hare Chaser]

This reply in one sense doesn't apply to the title of the post accept for the fact that the majority of the advertised studs are Field Champions that only have obtained that degree through winning and placing in field trials. Personally I hold the value of the FC title pretty loosely until I know all I can about the owner, the generations behind the dog, it's litter mates and the dog standing at stud.

A gentleman once told me when you carry your valued bitch to a standing stud know the integrity of the studs owner first. I'd say the same works in reverse, If I was the stud owner I would want to know the quality of the bitch being bred and the integrity of the owner bringing it to "meet" my stud.

Kudos to folks like Jim Hall who with prior arrangement actually wants you to see his stud perform..............and he also wants to see your bitch go before agreeing to commit her to his stud. I realize not everyone can do this. It is possible to weed out most of the tire kickers and guys with worthless dogs with a handful of pointed questions for those who can't/don't have the ability to verify the bitches ability.

[RollingTrack]

IMO THE SOONER EVERONE JUDGES THE DOGS FOR THERE ACOMPLISHMENT OF RUNNIG THE RABBIT FOR THAT DAY,THAT TIME,THAT CONDITION,INSTED OF NEGATIVE RUNNING STYLES, WE WOULD NOT BE TALKING ABOUT THIS ...!! WE DO PERMOTE A RABBIT DOG (GUN DOG)A EXTRA BARK DOES NOT EVER KEEP YOU FROM KILLING A RABBIT,,A LIL ROUGH ON THE LINE NEVER KEEPS US FROM KILLING A RABBIT,,A DOG THAT REACHES OUT AND GETS THE CHECK HAS ALL WAYS GOT THE RABBIT TO THE GUN A LIL QUICKER IMO,,,,I THINK NEGATIVE JUDGING IS NOTHING MORE THAN A WAY TO REMOVE THE THREAT OF ANOTHER HOUND WINNING...IMO BUT NEVER THE LESS IT TAKES TWO JUDGES AND THEY MUST AGREE,I ALL SO THINK IF YOU DO NOT HAVE THE BACK BONE TO STAND UP FOR YOUR OPINION,YOU SHOULD NOT BE JUDGING...

[mybeagles]

Neil,
The AKC rule book lists and describes a long list of faults. You listed several of them. Should they be ignored or overlooked?

I would argue a pack of reaching, skirting, extra mouth off the line WILL cause you to lose rabbits and ultimately not bring a rabbit back to the gun. Often in a field trial setting there is a higher than normal population of rabbits so the reaching rough hound picks up new rabbits and dogs get pulled in different directions. When handlers are told to grab their dog 75 yards away from the pack and bring them back they get fuming mad. If the judge just lets them go the handlers of the dogs holding the race together get mad.

Based on your description of what you like in a trial you would favor large pack. Very little negative judging, most of focus is on dogs that come through first regardless how they get there. Some pay attention to some of the faults but they are often hard to see.
AHRA LP also places emphasis speed and drive with no penalty for swing or reach. Generally speaking SPO trials place some degree of emphasis on control, point of loss inside out check work and penalty for faulty actions. Based on the judging, Associations go through phases where they loosen up and allow the fastest dog to win inspite of being quite faulty by the rule book. From what I understand in recent years they have been trying to clean it up. Understandably this can leave handlers frustrated when their hounds get picked up for actions that otherwise would allow them to win or place. In every format for every action there is equal and opposite reaction. Interesting to watch the kennels that tweak their hounds to fit the trend versus the kennels that keep the same style hounds and loby to get the federations to adjust.

[BCBeagles]

Hare Chaser,

Thank you for the compliment....this is a very civil post with good opinions from experience.

Thanks for starting a quality thread!

Best way to judge a dog...IMO....in the brush behind a rabbit...in shape out of shape....we will cut them loose and have a good time doing so.

Good running to all!

[fastone]

Good conversation here .As far as showing a stud in the field of course its up to the owner ,some may think they need to show there hound to be bred some may want to show ,some may feel their hound has nothing to prove .A lot of potential breeders state can i bring a dog to run with yours ? Dont know how many people run their FCGD or IFC or FTCH or whatever and keep them in top shape or "run IN shape "id say odds are not many .There fore I see their view on not showing a hound in top shape so some individuals might come back saying my hound got a check on him or my hound got a line .....I know of a time when an individual challenged a stud owner on a forum because the stud owner said I dont show him to the public .This individual stirred the pot enough that the owner of the stud called this person and said bring your best and bring your self only and well drop em bud .Well after agreeing on a date this fella never called nor showed .lol. Check with judges that have witnessed the hound ,accomplishments ,offspring and wins in conditions ...... IMO

[Shady Grove Beagles]

Don't want to get too far off track here with discussion about stud dogs and how guys handle that whole arrangement.
Back to field trial ponderings. There's so much talk about gun dogs / hunting dogs and field trial dogs with many stating that a good gun dog should be a good trial dog and a good trial dog [ F.C. or I.F.C.? ] should be a good hunting dog.Sounds good when we say it right? But are we really that naive?
The idea that ANY of the trialing formats in some way equates itself to a Saturday rabbit hunt with yourself or several friends just doesn't wash with me.
Let's take Large Pack for example.WHO and I mean WHO turns out 25,35 or even 50 strange hounds at one time and runs them for 3 hours,6 hours or even 9 hours without handling them or giving them a break? Is it any wonder that some Large Pack beagles can be the worst handling beagles you've ever seen? I've witnessed on numerous occasions a whole gallery spend an hour or more trying to catch a hound to be picked up or so the next class can come in the grounds and run. Some of these entered hounds have NEVER been run outside of an enclosure in their life.Some have never had a gun fired around them or had a rabbit shot in front of them.Have never been broke off of trash,etc.
I had a conversation with Mike Blair 20 years ago where he stated " beaglers in the south that run S.P.O.want a hound that co-operates with the pack to produce a smooth run.Trialers in the north in Large Pack want a hound that is a front runner and can out do the pack".
Many of today's most advertised and sought after stud dogs come from a Large Pack background. You need to know the hound and then ask yourself if this type will meet your needs as a brier thicket cotton tail shagger or as a solo runner in deep snow,single digit,crusty conditions hare hound.
How about S.P.O.? There have been many times when I've been out on a cast where there may be as many as 25 people in the gallery and everyone is hollering at the hounds working them and beating the brush like an African Safari.Then there are those clubs that have judges mounted on horseback.I know some judges are good about this but have seen others where they gallop the horses right up on top of the running hounds or stand the horses right in the middle of the check area.Have also seen some packs given as little as 20-30 minutes down before being picked up.How many beaglers operate like this when out on a Saturday trying to fill your game bag? Some beagles can operate just fine under those conditions [ especially those that are on the circuit and have been exposed to it ] but there are many top hounds that do not excel when used this way.Doesn't make their ability less. Would you discredit a hound that didn't shine in this format but could jump his own rabbits and circle his rabbit relentlessly on a hunt?
Then there's A.R.H.A. Little Pack.I can't begin to tell you how frustrating it is to me and my hounds to release them and in an hour's hunt be told "dead track, handle your hounds". There has been many times where you have to chase after your hound,down him,leash him up and move a 100 feet and release him again only to be told "dead track,catch your hounds" again and again.Is this how any of you hunt your dogs?What do think the dog is thinking when he goes looking for a rabbit and repeatedly is leashed up and then again cast and told "hunt em up"?
I know this all sounds like a bunch of complaining about trialing but I'm only trying to illustrate my point. I haven't found any of these trialing formats to really equate to what many of us look for in a gun / hunting dog.
Trialing can be a very enjoyable pursuit and in the past I have had enjoyment doing it.Met many great beaglers,seen some outstanding dogs run and over all the fellowship of like minded dog men has been rewarding.
Just my "ponderings" on some of the aspects of Field Trialing.

[Hare Chaser]

My heart sure isn't in trailing.......not even a little bit. Yet, I don't have to go back beyond the third generation in any hound I own to start seeing FC's show up. My dogs are gun dogs in my book first and foremost and a couple might do OK ina trial.

Many people and I've been one to join the chorus at times, will complain about the trials and the dogs that run in them. Yet, when their good female comes in heat the FC title looks mighty good when looking for a stud dog for no more reason than it makes a difference in selling the extra pups not kept by the breeder. So is it the trials that are the result of the difficulty in finding good gun dogs? Remember the trial is just an event. As such it will only be as good as the dogs that get put in to compete and the judges making the decisions. Seemingly, you always have to have 5 dogs on the podium at days end. 4 of which, in licensed trials, earn points towards the FC degree. Does anyone ever remember a trial being held where only one or 2 dogs placed or even no dogs placed because there was no dog worthy of placing? Not likely! So it is very likely that there are any number of FC's out there at any given time reproducing their likeness, junk dogs.

Trials have their place and they can serve the breed well when quality dogs are entered and quality judges do their jobs.

[mybeagles]

In AKC the judges must place 4 hounds and idetify NBQ. I have seen a couple trials where no hound should have placed but it's not an option for the judge. I understand CKC gives the judge that option but I doubt it's utilized very often.