Running Pen Size for Cottontail

[gpen08]

Let me start by saying this is just my experiences with running in an enclosure. I think there is good and bad when running in one. The enclosure I run in is an old brace club so there is alot of mowed paths. It can teach a dog to be lazy and walk the paths and if that happens too often the dog doesn't stay here. I believe a seasoned club rabbit is much smarter and pulls way more tricks than the rabbits I hunt. My dogs have caught rabbits in the enclosure but that only happens when the rabbit is sick(tick necklace probably anemic), a freshly stocked rabbit who hasn't figured out the fence yet, or on rare occasions a rabbit they are hammering and sits to tight in the brush after being pressured for an extended amount of time. The reason I really like the enclosure is there is no better place for me to honestly critique the dogs than there. I can see way more of the run than I can when hunting. The places I hunt are thick and you just can't see how the dog is running the rabbit in the thick stuff. How they do it is the most important thing to me and the enclosure lets me weed out the cutters, swingers, overrunning overcompetitive hounds, and the dogs that just don't have the line control I want. Now I know everyone probably thinks that with that description I run UBGF style hounds but I do not. My hounds have alot of shooter blood in them and that is because that's the quickest and cleanest dogs I could find that suit me. I believe that running in both the wild and the enclosure benefits me and the dog.

[likeemfast]

If you have quick, line running, good check hounds, cottontails don't stay up long.

Swampman, what do you consider long? I believe my hounds to be run to catch type, decent check hounds and 80pct of our runs are 60-90 minutes. Some even longer. Just curious

[Hare Chaser]

I believe that running in both the wild and the enclosure benefits me and the dog.

I agree with you on this and that's why I too, belong to a club. The other reason is that I know the time is coming when running in the club may well be the only way I can continue running hounds. Especially in the winter months. Busting through 18" of powder on snowshoes gets tougher after 55 ! I can still do it but not like I could 30 years ago!!

[Hare Chaser]

Harechaser you make some interesting observations but you were addressing Hare and the OP was asking about Cottontail enclosures.

Your point is well taken. I have never run hounds in a cottontail enclosure so perhaps should not have commented. Yet, there seems to be some similar issues based on what I've read and been told by those who have run in cottontail enclosures.
I don't think a steady diet of running in encloures brings out the best of what a gun dog could or should be as a finished hound. Though I may end up being one of those whose only alternative to run hounds is to do just that due to circumstances beyond my control.

[Swampman]

I rarely get a cottontail to stay above ground for more than a half an hour.
I honestly don't think I have ever had one stay up for an hour.
They rarely catch one in the wild but have on occasion. I run year-round and many races end in the same spots where the holes are evident. Do they just plain lose some, absolutely, but the majority end up going to refuge.
I do have longer runs in spring when the bucks are breeding and the area is large enough.

I am fortunate enough to live in a state that is pro hunting and has 100's of 1000's acres of public hunting lands.
I also live in farm country where not only we farm, I know many farmers and land owners that let me run my hounds.
I rarely run in an enclosure now a days.

Not looking to get into a debate, just giving my own personal experience with small enclosures and cottontails which I believe was the original question.

Heading out to hunt the rest of the day now, Happy New Year to all.

[Shady Grove Beagles]

I know this post started off about running pen size for cotton tails but most everyone replying has taken it in a little different direction according to their preferences and experiences.
There have also been opinions shared about cotton tail running in general and types of hounds used.Given that ,I won't feel guilty about straying off the topic of "strictly" pen size.
When I moved to Tn. 21 years ago the first thing i did was build myself an enclosure.It was approximately 6-7 acres with 5 acres being densely covered with down timber,thick briers and greenbrier,tall grasses and some swamp.The other 2 acres was more open woodland.Back then it cost me around $2,000.00 and my labor to build that pen.
I built that pen with the thought in mind to use it for starting pups and limited running of grown dogs. What I found was that if you are going to have a pen for starting young pups don't waste your time and money building one that size.One or two acres will suffice.It is cheaper and easier to build, easier to maintain,easier to work the pups and jump the rabbits.If your only desire is to introduce pups to rabbits and get them opening then you don't need any more than this.
As far as running grown dogs in a pen this size.As I've already stated--it matters what type of hound you are running.My hounds are 15", northern hare breeding;Ninja,Branko, Greenbrier,
Turbo,Reggie,Jiggs,Shaker and Striker.I found I couldn't run 2-3 dogs of this breeding in a pen that size as they were catching the cotton tails in 30 minutes of non-stop running.A single hound in that pen would run a cotton tail in there like they were on a merry-go-round with the rabbit mostly running the fence line and the beagle putting laps on behind him until the rabbit would get too tired and start squatting and I'd have to catch the hound or if not catching the rabbit they would pound them to the point of exhaustion within a hour or two and you'd mysteriously find a dead rabbit just laying out in your pen.A 7 acre pen even with thick cover in my experience was not big enough for that type of beagle.There is a local guy here that keeps little 13" conservative beagles and I've seen him run 6-9 of them in a 3 acre pen and they'll "run" in there for hours.A completely different type of hound.
If I had it to do all over again I wouldn't go to the expense and effort to build a pen for running all age hounds on cotton tail of the type I keep that was less than 20-25 acres. The 7 acre pen was a waste of money in my opinion.
Another thing that many do with running and especially starting pens is use domestic rabbits.Call them what you will;Tn.Redbacks,San Juans,Knotheads,Smokey Mtn. cotton tails,etc.In my experience they are fine for starting 12-14 week old pups to get them to open and start using their noses otherwise I wouldn't give you a nickle for them as game for mature running dogs.JMHO.
I grew up in hare country and i regularly travel up to hare country and run my Tn. hounds that are primarily run on cotton tail most of their lives.We often have 2 hour runs and sometimes longer than that.Here in Tn. over the last 21 years I've found that a cotton tail can not take more than an hour of running behind mine and my friends hounds before he better get in a hole or they're going to catch him.As Swampman mentioned during the rut you might get one to run a little longer but I think the longest cotton tail run I've ever had was 1 1/4 hrs.When I hear guys tell me they had a 2+ hour run on a cotton tail I can tell you exactly what style of hound they are running.
Newt,I have to take exception to your statement" If you have run to catch hounds that run hit or miss they are usually exposed by educated cotton tails and have a difficult time staying on the line".When I hear that statement it makes me wonder if you've ever been exposed to a good,fast, accurate running beagle.No disrespect intended but I've met many beaglers in this part of the country that have hunted cotton tails their entire life and have not had the exposure to the type of hound that swampman and myself are referring to.I quote swampman"My hounds are quick but by no means hookers and swingers,they run the line and snap back and get checks quickly.If you have quick,line running,good check hounds cotton tails don't stay up long".
Ditto likeemfast,but maybe not too fast.
As always all opinions are my own and hopefully humbly expressed.

[Newt]

Shady I said a "hit and miss" type hound. I didn't say your hounds nor Swampman's hounds. I've seen video's of Swampman's hounds and I would not call them hit or miss. They were impressive line running hounds with speed.
I run a different line of hounds but cottontails can't stay up more than about an hour when they are being pursued. When a race ends, I can usually tell what happened by the mud or dirt on their shock collar. Occasionally they will catch one on a good scenting day.

[S.R.Patch]

What would be the minimum size running pen for cottontail if you only run 3 dogs?

It all depends upon the cover your enclosing. I've seen pens where 6 is sufficient and others where 20 is hardly enough. A hearty pen of root wad, sapling, honeysuckle, treetops & briar, you know, things that slow you down and make you look for a rabbit with nose, where he can twist and double. tuck in and let you run right by. Rabbits like to play tag with each other, many hounds switch rabbits when the fading scent of a failing rabbit is revived by a fresh scent that's been rousted from it's bed by his own brother.
It is easier to fence a place like this in than it is to build one. You know, they call them honey-holes, but sometime the best we can do is try to recreate them.
Good luck, structure & cover is your key. imo

[Shady Grove Beagles]

Newt
I went back and read your previous post and i thought you were equating "hit and miss" and a hound that can't accurately push it's game with the term"run to catch". Wanted to make sure that wasn't the case.
" Run to catch", to me just indicates a hound that pursues his game with the intention to close on it and catch it. I've had the opportunity over the past 50 years to use hounds to chase 3 species of rabbits,coon,bear,bobcat,fisher cat,squirrel and fox.I will always prefer a hound that "runs" it's game and not a hound that just" trails" it's game.
Many times when the subject of a "run to catch" hound comes up on these boards people automatically start throwing out the terms hit and miss,skirting,swinging,etc.
I come from a background of hare hunting,have attended Large Pack on Hare trials,hare hunted with different individuals and their hounds and have hounds whose ancestors have been extremely successful in the Mid-West SPO trials on cotton tails.These hounds are very quick on their game and also can be very accurate.

[Tim G]

My pen is close to 40 acres it's plenty big for me but I'm always wishing I had another one. They are work keeping them up and checking the French but they are worth the hassle mine has cotton tail and swampers in it. So build it as big as possible u will be glad u did

[Hare Chaser]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7hT47Xw6s ... e=youtu.be

Saw this posted on HH board. Has some good tips on fencing in a running area and arial predator protection.

[PABeagler]

Hare Chaser, thanks for the video clip, it was excellent!

[Tim G]

I have the solar night guard lights in my starting pen they don't work here for me owls fly right by them

[Hare Chaser]

I have the solar night guard lights in my starting pen they don't work here for me owls fly right by them

I've heard that from others as well. We've never had any luck with the noise making stuff either.