misunderstandings over defining your ideal beagle?

[Novice]

After reading some of the past threads on this board and others. I found myself asking why are people so defensive or agumentitive over what they believe to be the ideal beagle. This I believ happens in everyday interaction between beaglers as well. Terms that I have heard to describe beagles and I'll probably leave some out are. Speed this is probably the hardest to describe to someone without them actualy watching a dog run or having watched one run that they could use as a reference. Recentely while running a Kalagha pup that I purchased last year at my club one of the members quote" I thought the dogs from down south were allot slower than that. this was a clear case of him referencing what he had seen from other lines in the past. I used this term as a exampel . How manny other terms get argued over on these boards and reflect this exampel? terms such as hocking, swinging, overrunning, line control, conservative, wild loose crazyetc. Anyway you guys get the idea I would like to see some thoughts on this and maybe how we could be moreinformative or how we can better get the traits of our hounds across to someone who has never seen them run obefore in a way they can get an acurate description from their end. Or I should say an understanding of the information they are getting ? I know this is a pipe dream but heck the hunting season is allmost over and the trial season about to start for me anyway so what the heck?

[Alabama John]

Novice, there is no way to answer this.

Everyone has their own ideas and they vary according to where you live, who you run with, what type dogs you like and keep, what format and registery you trial in and the terrain and weather conditions you trial and hunt in.

I went hunting today with a nice gentleman that warned me at breakfast that his dogs were fast footed and that he hoped they did not pull mine off the track too much as his swung out some on a lose.

He was honestly concerned and serious. I hoped what he was concerned about did not happen as well, but I just nodded and kept quiet!

It was just the opposite and he and I laughed and kidded each other all day.

Degrees of plusses and minuses are in the eye of the beholder and running in water flooded conditions and terrain unfamiliar to his dogs did not help him any. He might of dominated in his own back yard where his dogs were trained and used to running.

He was used to briars and thick stuff and serica and they were much faster footed than anything any of his friends had, so, that is how he judged his dogs traits and foot speed.

We all do that as that is all we can go by unless we run all over the United States and in all conditions and with all different types of beagles. Most of do not get too far from home so we see things differently in our dogs from those Houndsmen in other parts of the Country.

[Joe West]

Perhaps if when discussing a trait or hound action we each gave a definition of it when we named it we would have a better understanding of what each other were saying. IN fact we've done that many times while discussing hound actions. But here is where the big problem is as I see it, and you have done it yourself in your post, it is this thing about it being in the eye of the beholder. If we could all get on the same page of a hound action not being in the eye of the beholder but rather how the action affects the chase then we'd be alot closer. That is, A faulty hound action is a faulty hound action no matter the hound that exhibits it. The severity of the action depends on how badly it interfears with or fails to contribute to the chase but it is always a faulty hound action. The best hound of the day could still exhibit a faulty hound action and be the best hound of the day but that doesn't change the fact that he has a fault.

[GT]

Very well said Joe. That certainly would clear up any discussion on the traits and/or faults exhibited by a hound.

[Alabama John]

Joe, my friend, you are not going to suck me into that trap. You are the master debater. You and I do not like the same type or style of rabbit dog. You wouldn't have mine if I gave them to you. Most faults we would agree on but on some few others we would never agree due to our personal likes and dislikes and to our running our dogs in conditions and terrain entirely different from each other.

Hope you have had a great season.

Our freezers are stocked with all the rabbits we'll need.

[wvrabbithunter]

john how is that speedie dog doing,i hope you;ll are happy with him

[Alabama John]

He's doing real good and a friend of mine has him and we hunt together.
He is not too fast for here.
He'll like running in the Soy bean fields this spring and summer.

[Robert W. Mccoy Jr]

Hey fellas,
I'm up here in michigan and I have to agree with what most of you are saying.
I think it basically comes down to what you personnally like to see in a rabbit dog.
Also as Joe said where you run and hunt.
There are alot of REALLY fast dog's up here.
There are also alot of REALLY slow dog's up here.
I hunt and run mostly cotton tail.
And the occasional snowshoe.
I need dog's that can put plenty of pressure on a rabbit but still know how to slow down when it's below -10 outside.
We just had a really bad cold snap and it did a really good job sorting dog's out for us.
Intellegince and time on the ground.
I think thats the key.
My personnal favorite running caricteristic is working a check calmly.
Then walking out of it with the rabbit.
The only way I can get the type of dog's I like to do that is to run them in bad conditions a time after time.

Rob

[Joe West]

Not so John. To be honest I don't have a clue whether I'd like your hounds or not never having seen them. It's not a trap. It's quite simply a matter of what works and what does not work. Now, if you are saying that you like certain hound actions that interfear with or do not contribute to the run then I probably won't like what you like. However that's not what your saying is it? What I think your saying is a certain hound action that I consider to interfear with a run you consider to be a plus for the run. It can't be both! Either it interfears with the run or it does not and that is where the understanding must come from. That is, we must know what interfears with a run and why and what promotes a run and why. I can assure you that if you don't like a hound action or quality that interfears with it's intended purpose of hunting we will be in complete agreement. However if you like a hound action or quality that interfears with the intended purpose of hunting we will disagree.

Common sense is the most important tool in beagling.

Actually I'm a vary poor debater but I have common sense on my side.

[DarrinG]

I must agree with John. What is my favorite dog, he may not care for at all. I would bet that is the exact case, as John likes ultra-fast hounds and dont mind a little swinging and skirting. I like upper-medium speed dogs that have good line control and close check work. Are either of us wrong? Absolutely not!! I'm sure John is happy w/ his choice of dogs and likewise I am w/ mine. We both can be happy and kill our share of bunnies over our dogs. It's just a little different means to obtain the same result....having fun, enjoying the dogs and killin' rabbits!

[Bev]

Joe - trust me, you wouldn't like John's hounds, lol! But, they work for him and make his heart go pitty-pat. I know he kills rabbits with them.

John, you would be too impatient for Joe's hounds. From knowing a little about the foundation stock of Joe's, they are nice hounds, but would be too deliberate for you. But, they suit Joe's idea of a good gundog and he kills rabbits with them.

Now I like both John's hounds and Joe's hounds. If we leave trialing out of it, I like any dog than can run a rabbit to the gun - period. For myself to handle and watch, I prefer a medium to high medium hound, but I get a kick out of watching Ralph's high-octane hounds, too.

Ain't nothin' in this world as beautiful to the ears as a hound after a rabbit.

[REBEL]

Ok-my two and a half cents worth--I like a radar hound-one than can lock on and catch as many as you kill-but seldom have i had such and at present have extra fast hounds,with lots of hunt,no quit,very eager and energetic,very competitive,run to catch if they can,but they have one circle to do it in and than it is my turn to see if i can bag it before they catch it and they best be right on line if i bag it or they pass me when i miss.allways tell other to let it lie untill i see how the hounds followed the rabbit tracks.Hounds that can take any terrian dry,wet,snow and heat-swamps,fields,woods,heavy briars,thick brush and thay must get in the thick of things and bring the rabbit to me cause i ain't going to.Speed==fast enough to catch in open fields and good running conditions and intelligent to know when to use gears to keep the rabbit in a straight line ahead leaving little or no time for fools play/rabbit tricks.

[Joe West]

DarrinG: That's a cop out for refusing to call it like it is. IN an honest discussion of hounds peoples toes are bound to be stepped on but the alternative is to lie.

[Joe West]

Bev: Never, ever, herd them described as too deliberate before. Are you implying that John has tree knockers?

[DarrinG]

Joe, I guess in you world eveyone is your same political affiliation, your same religion, drives a vehicle just like yours, dresss just like you and on and on........It's not a "cop-out" like you say, its being open-minded and realizing everyone dont see things the exact same.....

For someone else to like a dog that swings some, is it right for me to tell them their dog is crazy? If we are at a trial where we are in a format where swinging is a fault, then yes, the judge has that right. But for me to point out faults (to my own personal preference) about a swinging dog to someone who prefers a swinger, I am being very narrow-minded. Likewise would he to say my dogs are too conservative......And John is right, you are a good debater......!

Peace, I'll leave this thread at that!