Pride 30/20 dog food

[A-SHOCK]

This topic has probably already been on this board but does anyone feed Pride 30/20 and if so how do you like it.

[S.R.Patch]

I'd been feeding the 31/22 new stuff through the winter and cut back to the 21/17 due to the heat and them not needing so much. The $7 a bag I'm saving, plus feeding one cup instead of 2, I can throw in a chicken leg every other day at no extra cost.
The kibble along with all the extra water they take in make for the soft stool many see. Less feed with a meaty treat seems to keep the stool hard and they love the change up of a little whole chicken or some out-dated meat, the butcher will usually mark down the day before expiration.
Tank got loose the other night and ran for about 6 hrs(according to my wife with no sleep) before I got home that morning to put him up. He's just now showing his eyes as they were swollen shut the next day. Old dog trying to act like a kid again... lol

[sammiller03]

I feed it to every litter of pups with great results. I am feeding the 31/22 to all my dogs now and I am really happy with the results I'm getting from it.

[Big Mike]

You will probably see positive short term results . However feed is to hot, and in the long run will expedite kidney and/or liver failure.

[mybeagles]

What percentage of the protein from kibble gets digested?

According to veterinary nutrition research center at California Berkley when derived from high quality sources these are the digestibility percentages of protein sources.

Whole eggs...........100%
Fish....................90%
Red meat..............80%
Chicken ................75%
Whole Grains...........30-40%

Being that kibble comes from byproducts and waste products the digestion rates would be much lower. Add in the high temp baking process and the protein digestibility is further reduced.

I've had this conversation with 2 vets and the takeaway was high protein doesn't cause kidney failure but can be problematic with dogs that are experiencing kidney failure. Curious what others have heard from their vet and is it a ploy to sell some $80 bag kibble.

Following the logic that high protein kibble destroys the kidneys..... feeding some raw meat or worse yet raw eggs would nearly kill a dog due to the high protein. Am I the only one that finds this High Protien/Kidney failure link ridiculous?

Is it possible the preservatives, e coli, bacteria, low grade waste products may present some risks?

I honestly don't care what anyone decides to feed their dogs but this high protein scare tactic seems more of an appeasing of the conscience for those who buy the cheapest food available with bare bone levels of protein.

[warddog]

I am NOT a doctor or expert on animal nutrition and or the side effects BUT having spent a 30+ year career in inspecting meat and poultry during slaughter let me poise this question about the kidney issue and other internal organs for that matter. During the inspection process ALL the internal organs are examined to assure they are fit for human consumption. In EVERY species of animal inspected it is known how they are raised and what is interesting to note is that the vast MAJORITY of feed lot cattle slaughtered have livers and kidneys degenerated, containing cysts and or abscesses while the ole family farm pasture raised cattle have the only as their main problem, parasitic lesions from a lack of worming regularly. I have also been involved with one BIG pharmaceutical company and a MAJOR science university in their testing of hogs as well as cattle in feed trials. This was done at one of the small slaughter houses I inspected where lots of animals were tested with different high protein feeds and compared to control groups. The testing was actually being done to determine the grow out in quantity and quality of retail cuts from the differing feeds compared to the control, grass fed group. In every test performed it was noted that the livers as well as the kidneys were degenerated or as they call it BURNED up.

This field of meat and poultry inspection is supervised by VETERINARIANS and the entire field is managed by Doctors, be they Veterinarians, which most are or a regular MD. I will also say that there is a big difference in a VET in practice and one in meat and poultry inspection as the ones in inspection are actually making a final determination of the fitness for human consumption. This is only done after an inspector such as myself determines that the carcass and or parts are unfit and takes it from the food chain for a final veterinary disposition on wholesomeness. Field inspectors NOT having a degree in Veterinary medicine can NOT condemn entire carcasses but can individual parts such as livers, kidneys, hearts, or other parts affected with unhealthy tissues. I wish I had a dollar for every new SPHV (supervisory Public Health veterinarian) that I trained in post mortem inspection over my 30+ year career.

Dog food's nutritional standards are done by the AAFCO, Association of American Feed CONTROL Officials which is NOT a government agency. They are however composed of canine nutritional EXPERTS. They set the minimal requirements or STANDARDS for promoting canine growth and maintenance followed by the entire industry. What is interesting to note is that these EXPERTS have established that the minimum protein that any dog from one in growth to reproduction and adult ages require a minimum of 18-22% protein to be and stay in healthy flesh. They also note that a true requirement for FAT has NOT been established they consider it a source of fatty acids, and a carrier of vitamins, minerals as well as a flavor enhancer and determine the minimum standards of between 5-8%.

The pet food industry is a BIG business and they are all out to get YOUR money so I suspect they grab consumers hard earned bucks by promoting that if the bare minimum is ALL that is needed then making a feed that is higher in Protein and fat is better so they can charge more for it. As for feeding raw vs. kibble fat and protein levels are fat and protein levels and it matters not if it comes from raw chicken or cooked kibble. If those feeding raw know that one chicken thigh or leg works REAL well for them then surely a whole chicken will be even better per meal! By the way if feeding that way the Protein and fat intake will increase as well as it matters not where they come from.

[LR Patch]

Well My Beagles and I agree about high protein feed and kidney failure . Infact AKC just released and paper on myths and dog feed . Two vet's just finished a study on this topic . As My beagles said high protein feed can do damage if kidney problems already exist , study conclude no finds that high protein feed cause's kidney failure if dog is healthy .

[mybeagles]

Wardog,

Im not sure its fair to compare cows and pigs (herbivores)(omnivore) and dogs (carnivores).

Just feeding animals what they are naturally designed to eat might work.

[warddog]

L R Patch, I would love to read the study you refer to. can you post a link to it.

Mybeagles, I guess you are not aware that the very same meat and bone meal that goes into dog food also goes into ALL pet feeds? It has just been in the last 10 years or so that the use of it was BANNED in CATTLE feed because of the Mad Cow disease. The vast majority of the mad cow disease cases that were able to be traced back resulted in the cows consuming feed that contained meat and bone meal from rendered cattle offal. The mad cow prion survived the ultra high temperatures from the cooking down, drying our process and was then refed to other cattle continuing the cycle. YES, that is correct herbivores were being fed meat and bone meal for YEARS! How does one think that food and drugs are tested, it is done on animals and from those tests then used on humans. Yes, it is within the scope of scientific research to use animals as a comparison guide and clinical studies for human food compounds (additives) as well as drugs. By the way are dogs carnivores or omnivores as it is a pure scientific FACT that dogs can and do eat vegetables as well as grains AND they can actually utilize carbs. On the other hand a carnivorous CAT can not! Cows are herbivores but have eaten meat and bone meal for years so are they herbivores? A raccoon is a carnivore but can and does eat ANYTHING it can find including nuts, berries, grass, roadkill and they LOVE persimmons! Bears are carnivores and can, will and do eat berries as well as graze on grass!

[mybeagles]

I guess you are not aware that the very same meat and bone meal that goes into dog food also goes into ALL pet feeds?

You make my point for me....cows and pigs should not be eating meat products. The result was mad cow disease. Canine stomach much more acidic, designed to digest meat. Cows as you know have multiple stomachs to digest grass and grains.

Just because dogs were put on kibble containing grains and vegetables does not make them omnivores in the same way cows are not omnivores because humans mix meat meal into their diet. Although dogs can process some carbs they are not ideal and a raw diet all but eliminates them.

A raccoon is not a carnivore. Bears are not carnivores either. Where did you learn that?

[warddog]

I guess you are not aware that the very same meat and bone meal that goes into dog food also goes into ALL pet feeds?

You make my point for me....cows and pigs should not be eating meat products. The result was mad cow disease. Canine stomach much more acidic, designed to digest meat. Cows as you know have multiple stomachs to digest grass and grains.

Just because dogs were put on kibble containing grains and vegetables does not make them omnivores in the same way cows are not omnivores because humans mix meat meal into their diet. Although dogs can process some carbs they are not ideal and a raw diet all but eliminates them.

A raccoon is not a carnivore. Bears are not carnivores either. Where did you learn that?

I don't think I made YOUR point at all but rather the opposite. I did misspeak on the raccoon as a carnivore and meant to say they are classified as an omnivore BUT will eat anything and actually eat about a third of their diet in plants, invertebrate water creatures and roadkill meat. Some also believe that raccoons are quite sanitary and wash their food.
Bears are classified as carnivores including the Giant Panda that eats almost bamboo exclusively. Even the Polar bear that lives almost exclusively on seals can and does eat plants such as kelp as well as berries etc. The classification and what an animal actually eats is not totally in step as the region where they live has an impact on it. My point is that the science is out on a lot of what people believe and many think an animal is classified as to what it eats which is not exactly the case. The scientific world is also up in the air on whether canines are actually carnivores or omnivores because of what they eat although they are classified as carnivorous. We all know that they can, do and will eat grass. What they eat is normally what they have access to and has nothing to do with what they can live on if having to survive. Cattle have lived for a LONG time being feed store bought high protein feed to fatten them up over the lower protein old grass. YES, that high protein feed did cause problems and mad cow disease is but only one of them and from my experience with post mortem inspection (autopsies) of ALL slaughtered animals species as well as poultry it also causes the internal organs to degenerate. What I have also seen is animals that are raised "ORGANICALLY" actually have more problems with parasitic lesions and other internal organ problems such as pneumonia and internal adhesions.

[LR Patch]

I deleted the email from AKC that this " Myths about dog Food " was in , but I'm sure it can be found on the AKC website .

[Norshore]

Not certain if this is the one or not....

http://www.akc.org/content/health/artic ... -dog-food/

From the article----

High-protein diets cause kidney failure.”

The idea that excess protein causes kidney failure arises from the fact that high levels of protein have historically been ill-advised for dogs with kidney failure. Failing kidneys allow urea, a byproduct of protein metabolism, to build up in the blood, making the dog feel sick. That’s why the blood urea nitrogen (BUN) is used as one index of kidney function. Decreasing dietary protein can decrease the BUN. But if the protein level is too low, the body simply draws on its own protein source, its muscles, causing more harm.

In fact, there’s a huge debate about whether restricted protein is the way to go for dogs with kidney disease, with studies disagreeing about whether it helps kidney patients live longer. Researchers do agree that protein sources with high biological value produce fewer waste products and are better choices. Egg protein has the highest biological value, followed by milk, meats, soybean, and grains.

But what about protein levels for dogs with normal kidney function? The idea got out that you could preserve kidney health by not taxing them with too much protein. There’s very little support for this precaution, however. We can start by looking at situations in humans where people eat a high-protein diet. Bodybuilders, for example, have a very high-protein diet but a recent study showed they have no protein-related kidney problems.

Even historically, members of the Lewis and Clark expedition reportedly ate a diet of mostly buffalo meat each day with no ill effects. More than 1,600 women followed for 11 years had no significant differences in glomerular filtration rate (GFR), a measure of kidney function, related to protein intake. In rats receiving a diet of 50 percent protein, no anatomical changes were noted in the kidneys compared to rats on a 14 percent protein diet.

There’s still disagreement about the ideal level of protein, but the bottom line is, feed a moderate level of high-quality protein, and your dog will likely be just fine.

[mybeagles]

Wardog,

Both brown and black bears are omnivores.

I fail to see what cows,pigs, bear, coon, cats, skunks, frogs have to do with a dogs diet.

Talk coyote or wolf and I can see the connection.

What I have found feeding a straight RAW meat diet for 5 years with no vegetables, no grains, no carbs, is my dogs never get stomach worms, never get ear infections, coats are shinny, teeth are bright white with no build up, they muscle up real nice, no stomach bloat after eating, crap a tiny firm dry turd, drink less water, have more energy,.....that being said, if you feel more comfortable feeding kibble then by all means thats what you should feed. I just can't stand reading any more posts about high protein kibble burning up the kidneys.

[warddog]

Maybe both Brown and black bears eat meat, plants beries and other vegetation but they are of the classification of carnivora meaning they are carnivores. This is the brown bear fact sheet.

Class: Mammalia

Order: Carnivora

Family: Ursidae

Genus: Ursus

Species: arctos

Black bears are also of the same Order of carnivores.here is the Classification of Black Bears


Ursus americanus
Kingdom:
Animal

Phylum:
Chordata
Class:
Mammalia
Subclass: Theria
Infraclass: Eutheria
Order: Carnivora
Suborder: Fissipedia
Family: Ursidae
Subfamily:
Ursinae (all living bears except giant panda and the spectacled bear)


Genus: Ursus
Subgenus: Euarctos
Species: americanus

I've read the report and it is NOT conclusive about dogs with normal kidney function and by the way it compares dogs to humans, mice, body builders and Lewis and Clark. I'm not saying that feeding kibble is good or the best and I agree with you that raw is the natural and probably the best but to feed. What I am saying is that what I have noticed in meat animals the ones feed HIGH PROTEIN diets have shown to have more internal organ deficiencies than those fed lower protein and fat diets. If dogs do as you describe on one chicken leg or thigh then would they NOT do 5 times better uping the protein/fat levels to that of 5 chicken legs and or thighs per feeding? I believe the protein and fat levels of raw chicken to be about 23% protein, .8% fat, 75% water and 1.2% ash. Beef is pretty much the same as it is about 22% protein, 1.8% fat, the same 75% water and the same 1.2% ash. So with you feeding the raw diet of a chicken leg or thigh you are feeding the equivalent of about a 22% protein and 1% fat diet. that isn't a HIGH protein feed as it is right at the AAFCO standard of 18-22 percent protein and a little lower than the 5-8% fat levels recommended for growth, reproduction and adult maintenance. Adding an egg to the mix would add about 13% protein, 11% fat, 75% water and 1% ash. Certainly NOT a HIGH protein 31/21 diet.