Formats, Foot,and Style

[PAB]

You are absolutely correct Rowdy!

[Mark T]

I can tell you this 2XNLPC FC Maravics Blue Barry DID NOT lack for foot! I shot rabbits in front of him all of the NE, foot speed was not an issue. His sister, FC Maravics Blue Jean died here and is buried out back. She did not have the speed Barry did, but I would not call her slow. FC Maravic's Blue Moon also lived here and died here and she too is buried out back. She was one of the fastest 15" females I have ever seen. If Mr BB wants to talk more about these hounds he can call me. My number is all over this forum. I don't get on here much.

[WELLS WOODS]

I've only been to one LPH trial & judged a small pack on hare once & you're right they did run hard. It takes a very tough hound to excel in this type of running & they must have incredible stamina. But I do think that they learn after as while that they won't be picked up for hours. Our dogs down here don't get ran that hard so they are all keyed up with excitement when they get a chance to run & they don't get ran very much at a Mid-West trial either unless they make the winners pack. I went hunting one time with a guy that brought a couple LPH hounds down here. Our dogs would smoke them for the first 3 hours or so, but when they started to get tired, the large pack dogs would start to move up & eventually take over by the end of the day because they were in better shape. I think these bloodlines have proven that they can excel in any format that is looking for a good hunting dog; from LP on hare or small pack on rabbit. Without the LPH blood the Mid-West would be suffering to produce a great rabbit hound. Later.....

[Newt]

I've only been to one LPH trial & judged a small pack on hare once & you're right they did run hard. It takes a very tough hound to excel in this type of running & they must have incredible stamina. But I do think that they learn after as while that they won't be picked up for hours.

It takes a hound in super condition to run hare. Training on cottontail usually won't do the trick. Several years ago we took a few hounds to New York to run. One got third in a class of over forty hounds at Upper Hudson LPH. Prior to the trip, this hound was ran in a fox pen in Tennessee to get in shape.

[WELLS WOODS]

I hope you guys don't think I'm going out of my way to bash Blue Ninja. I love this bloodline, but I'm not going to lie about what I saw. I wouldn't want people to lie to me just to tickle my ears. We only got to see one FC by Ninja; the Northeast saw 49. So again, Mark T has seen the best Ninja stuff & bred them & I would not worry about getting enough foot by using Blue Ninja bloodlines because I respect his opinion on hounds 100 percent. I never got to see Blue Barry, only 3 littermates that Jerry Eversole kept. He was the breeder of the litter. Jerry had Knee High Christina, Knee High Fast Eddie & another 13" male my uncle owned for a while. Vic got FC Maravic's Blue Barry & FC Maravic's Blue Jean. I'd say Vic just got lucky & got the best 2 in the litter because I remember one year Blue Barry won the AKC LPH Nationals & FC Branko's Hard Rock placed second & Rock was a very hard hitting, footy dog. If Blue Ninja had been promoted in the Mid-West like Heli-Prop was, he would have probably produced many FC's in the Mid-West. There is plenty of evidence out there now to prove that Blue Ninja blood is a very valuable asset to have in your kennel.

[mybeagles]

Buckeye Blue Ninja Boy finished pretty quick in the Midwest. As I recall he won some big entry trials.

Greg I think what guys are talking about about is the overwhelming amount of Ninja dogs that finished with speed, power, hunt, and stamina all across the country in all formats. To say you seen a couple young ones that lacked speed is short sighted and doesn't paint an accurate account of what he produced. As you know top producers get bred to some sub par bitches and the results are obvious.

Having judged several LP and Midwest trials I can say with certainty I've never seen dogs pacing themselves. The predominant problem in the stronger formats is dogs starting out all wired up and needing to settle in. It takes a pack of 40 longer to settle in than a pack of 5-6.

[Jamie Rice]

Funny how this turned from opinions on format, foot, etc. to defense of one's preferred bloodlines...

Blue Boy was a very nice hound in my opinion. Having judged him, years ago I'd have to say compared to the majority of 15" males campaigned in the MWBGF that he was a step shy. Nevertheless that doesn't mean he was slow nor did it prevent him from accomplishing the title of Field Champion. In fact, he accomplished four straight licensed wins. I was lucky to judge him in a sanction trial/qualifier before he won the four licensed trials. I haven't any idea how he ran those four days he won, but at the qualifier he was never farther back than 3rd in a pack of 9 in the winners pack. When he had the front he didn't run off and leave the pack, but instead had steady control. However front end ability wasn't what won the trial that day and if a betting man I'd say wasn't what won him his four licensed trials. The day I judged him his ability to continuous find and work doubles did so. His ability to show patience, concentration, and determination in the end led to him receiving first place. After Blue Boy finished Jack, who was sick at the time, sold him to another gent in Ohio and ultimately Blue Boy ending up with Steve Laux. I think Mr. Laux bred him more than he probably had been with his previous two owners. Steve probably could answer any questions about his offspring better than anyone else.

I don't recall what was said or wasn't said, during the day Dana speaks of. Certainly nothing negative! However no offense to any of those there that day, but none of us had enough experience to properly assess Ninja or any of his offspring. Experience with a handful no where near qualifies one adequate assess matters. Definitely doesn't me. Besides Blue Boy I've only experience with two of Ninja's grand pups. Although I may have judged others that I'm unaware of. I try not to worry nor concern myself with how a dog is bred when judging. If he or she impresses me, then afterwards I'll inquire if I see fit. Anyhow the two grand pups I've owned were vastly different from each other. Obviously showing influences from the other hounds in their breeding. The 13" female I campaigned had more than enough foot to run in any format and definitely enough to satisfy me. She had a good share of success, with a 1st, 2nd and several other places and should've finished as a FC had I not got burned out on trialing. The 15" male was ran in a handful of trials while I owned him and as well with a previous owner. He was normally a middle of a pack dog cleaning up others messes and having the brains to never get himself in trouble. He had a few places, most notable a 2nd in large pack, but trialing was never my intention when I got him. I was more proud of him tattling on a winners pack of deer runners first time I ever trialed him than any day he place. Gun hunting is why I obtained him and still own him. He excelled under the gun and showed the brains to gear down when ran with my 13" hounds and yet speed up when ran with my friend's 15 hounds. He's 11 now and I regret having not bred him more. Please don't take any of the aforementioned statements as me bragging in any way as that's not my intent. Instead just me saying I'm well satisfied with the two I owned and furthermore well satisfied with what I saw of Blue Boy, the day I judged him.

BB, my best advice is go run in each format available to you. Sure there may be a few you feel like you've wasted your money in, but when you feel you've found the right one you'll know it. For what it's worth, there's a handful of Midwest clubs close to where you live just north in Indiana as well as UBGF clubs in your area. Both federations run the SPO format. There's good dogs is both federations. Just comes down to one's personal taste and preference.

I remember an article in Better Beagling years ago with Mr. Constanza, Ninja's owner. Can't remember word for word, but basically his statement was there's a format for all dogs, it's just the owner's task in finding the right one. Vic has ran in large pack, spo, gundog brace, brace, etc. He's had success and fun in each and I'm sure many others have too. :-)

Good running y'all!

[Pine Lakes]

I kept Blue Boy for awhile while Jack was sick. I remember we had just got over a foot of snow and Blue Boy got out of the kennel. He ran rabbits in that snow like he was tied to them. We can talk about speed and foot all we want, but if more hounds ran like Blue Boy, there would be a lot more consistency at the trials. He speed was around a 7 on a 1-10 scale, but everything else was awesome. Jack sold him to Kelly Basham here in Lima and then Kelly sold him to the last owner. A fine hound who was owned by an even finer man. Jack was a super nice man and it broke my heart to see him go through the terrible experience of terminal cancer.

[Slaux]

I ended up w/ Blue Boy at the end. More out of pure luck than anything else. It was obvious he had been loved and well cared for during his life, although he'd been on the shelf for quite awhile when I got him. He was a special dog. Very, very smart, with human like traits. Might seem funny, but I think the Ole Boy always missed his original owner. Just a sullenness he had about him, like a piece of him was missing. Blue was as fine a hound as ever set foot on this earth. He was all heart. I didn't get him until he was almost twelve. Up until the day I had to put him down he'd run any dog in my kennel into the ground. Not fast anymore, nearly blind and totally deph, but he'd run in 90 plus degree weather or below zero. It didn't matter, he just kept plugging along, NEVER losing the hare and never, EVER quitting. My other dogs, some FC's would be curled up at the gate after 15 or more hours and Ole Blue would still be out there shagging it. Most guys thought I was bullshitting, thought he was just crazy and boo hooing - until they saw him doing it in the flesh, with a hare out in front of him again and again. He stayed at a check until he solved it, PERIOD - and he solved it EVERY time. He was that good, right to the end. He sired large litters for me until he was over fifteen years old. Now all my dogs have his blood. I think he was one of the most over looked, under used dogs in beagledom. He had a lot to offer the breed and stamped most of his pups with as good or better ability than himself. The day I gave him back to Jack he was ready to hunt, tail wagging and eager, straining on the leash. Even though his body was failing him, heart and kidney's shutting down, fluid oozing from his feet, his spirit never did. It nearly broke my heart to put him down even though he was never really my dog. I shed a few tears and said a prayer for Blue and Jack that day. I'm sure their having a fine time now.....

[WELLS WOODS]

Nice post about Blue Boy & Jack. Jack was a good guy. I remember him well. Blue Boy should have been used more. He did win some big trials; Jessamine Co. one year I think. It was on those same grounds anyway. His mother was out of FTC Branko's Copper Boy I think. 3/4 the same as Blue Barry. I wish more of the best Blue Ninja dogs had been ran in the Mid-West. That would have made him even more famous. I think Ninja died young; overheated in someone's dog box or something?

[Shady Grove Beagles]

The August 2001 Better Beagling has a nice pic. of Jack Johnson posing F.C. Buckeye Ninja Blue Boy on the cover.
I spoke with Jack about breeding to Blue Boy shortly after that but sadly the cross never got made.
Here is a quote from Jack that accompanied the cover photo "Blue Boy is a dog with excellent speed,drive and super line control.He is also a dog that can turn out of a pack with the rabbit and go with it,or he can gear down under tough conditions and walk it out if he has to.The thing I like best about Blue Boy is his superior checking ability and the way he explodes off the check with a big loud squall mouth.He is a dog that likes to run and hunt all day and has never run off game.
He took 2'nd at Jackson,Ohio
He took 4'th at Wurtland,Ky.
His three wins were earned at Jackson,Ohio,Iowa and he finished with a win at Great Miami,Ohio"
His mother was Branko's Copper Penny---out of Copper Boy.

Kelley Basham in 2004 ran a stud ad in B.B. when he owned him quote"Blue Boy is a dog with brains,line control,checking ability and plenty on the top end to get it done---he runs just like his papers say he should !"

I communicated with Steve Laux about Blue Boy in the past and he says he has a son named Chance that is very much like ole Blue Boy in his traits/abilities.
Also have talked with Kelley Bonnet who had a son of Blue Boy named Lightfoot and he described him almost exactly like Steve described Blue Boy.
Don't know about the rest of you folks but the type of hound described by Jack Johnson,Steve Laux and both Kelleys is the kind I want in my kennel and should have success in ANY FORMAT regardless of foot or style !!
F.C. Buckeye Ninja Blue Boy and F.C. Maravic's Blue Barry were the last two living Ninja sons.Dying at 15 and 16 years of age.

[WELLS WOODS]

I'm pretty sure Blue Boy won a AKC licensed trial at Jessamine's running grounds. It could have been a qualifier, but there were a lot of entries. Also, another Ninja son, Blue Barry produced FC Pinnacle Hill Sport. I have a bitch by him & she runs with speed & control. She uses her mouth right & hunts very hard also. Sport has produced 3 Mid-West FCGD's that I know of. There is more Ninja blood in the Mid-West through Reggie's dam, Blue Girl; she was linebred Ninja. So there was definitely Ninja blood that produced plenty of foot, but the first ones we saw run in the Mid-West lacked foot; that is why several of us thought this to be true at the time, but looking back we never saw enough of his best offspring run to make that assumption & looks like we were wrong. I just wish we would have got to judge more his FC's. The Mid-West wasn't as big at that time & not as many LP dogs came down to run in our trials. Now we see several hounds finishing in both LP on hare & Mid-West on rabbit.
BB, I really like the Mid-West SPO, but I'm going to be honest, it takes a lot of foot to be competitive unless running conditions are terrible. Just remember that & sometimes it takes a hound a few trials to learn how to gear it up a notch under pack pressure & still run the rabbit/line with control.

[Hare Chaser]

Mr. Wells,

How I wish you'd take the opportunity to trek on up north on Memorial Day weekend and take in the AKC Nationals in Hardwick, VT. My guess is if you do and if you were to offer to marshall for one of the days for a full day. You would likely come away with a much different opinion. I'm not going to try and tell you that the Midwest trial dogs are slower than the LPOH dogs in the trial but there is no way you'll get me to believe that the Midwest dogs on average have more foot than their counterparts that consistently run and place through the season in LPOH trials.

It would be quite interesting to take a dozen Garmin mini's and randomly place them on competing dogs through out a trial season in both formats and record the speeds. In one sense this is really just a pointless conversation anyway. A top hound is a top hound. You will find very few hounds that can compete consistently in both formats and the few that can should be held in the highest regard.

As far as a dog learning to run faster in one format vs. another I can't buy that. The speed a hound runs with is one of many predetermined genetic characteristics. A fast hound is a fast hound wherever it is put down provided it has the olfactory power and the scenting conditions to pull scent. Most hounds are competitive enough to do whatever it takes to try and stay with or ahead of what they run with. Single them out or put them with others of their natural born foot speed and they'll revert to their genetic predisposition every time. Brains in a hound are an absolute benefit and a plus but they have far less influence on how a hound performs than than its genetic imprint does.

Call Mel Faust and see if he agrees with your statement. As you likely know, he lives in LA and for several years has spent summers in Maine and regularly competes and places in Lic. LPOH trials. I know he hosts Southern LP trials at his grounds at times. Do yo think the Midwest dogs are faster paced than those are too?

At the end of the day a good hound is a good hound and is most often best on the turf and conditions it is most often run in.

[sparky]

The MidWest definitely runs a footy dog,but you dont gotta have a speed demon to win. Arkmo's Boomer got 9 wins in the Big Male Class,he wasn't the fastest dog,but he ran with good control,could carry a line,didn't get rattled under pack pressure,was tough in the checks,an could turn out of the pack,I'm not sayin he lacks foot at all,but he wasn't winning from sheer speed,he's a Rabbit Dawg...

Sounds like Blue Boy was a Rabbit Dawg too

[Pine Lakes]

All this talk of speed and foot is so unimportant IMO. Ask anyone that's seen Howard's Bandit, Spencer's Turbo Babe, Arkmo's Boomer, and a host of others win a trial. They clean up messes made by faster, faulty hounds and are not influenced by them. Their focus on running the track supersedes any desire to race with pack mates and that is what makes them a deserving champion. The "Mid-West" hounds are no faster than any other beagles of the same genetic makeup. IMO the problem the Mid-West is facing is many fast, flashy hounds are being allowed to advance despite of their faults. While the Mid-West has steadily grown, we are no better than any other organization that is promoting rabbit dogs and our hounds are no better either.

I own a male that has had recent success and his style is very similar to Arkmo's Boomer even if he isn't quite the dog that Boomer is. I've certainly had faster, more flashy hounds, but I've never had a hound that focused on running the track like him or run a rabbit any more consistently than him. He has just enough foot to be there and more than enough sense to run the track despite faulty pack mates. In my eyes he's a FC and certainly a better dog than some that have finished, but also lesser of a dog than others. Looking back to my younger years, I put too much focus on speed. Speed without focus and concentration to run the line is a burden to consistent running. Don't be mistaken and come to the conclusion that I don't like a fast hound because nothing is further from the truth. What I can't tolerate is a dog that has no regard for running the rabbit correctly in exchange for being in front.