Who should get the most credit for a great dog???

backyard beagler · Post by **backyard beagler** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 8:29 am

somebody ask this earlier and nobody has answered it, if its not the genetics then why is pups selling so high?

gus · Post by **gus** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 10:08 am

I suppose you guys are implying that I could go up noth and buy some hare bred hounds, genetics, and let one of the the brace trial trainers start them, train them, and expect to have a trophy case full of peanut roller trophys. LOL

warddog · Post by **warddog** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 1:30 pm

To train is to teach, to show or to cause to know a subject. How many of you great makers of rabbit dogs have taught one to use it's nose to track a rabbit in lieu of chasing it by sight? I've been around a lot of young beagles and have yet to see a person get down on all fours and sniff a rabbit squat to TEACH a beagle how to do it. I've yet to see anyone barking while smelling that squat. What I have seen is putting them into the situations where their inherent qualities can be utilized. What I have seen is giving them more opportunities to hone their genetic traits. What I have seen is correcting things that people don't perfer. Have I ever witnessed a single person teach a beagle to smell and track a rabbit using tongue? NO, and neither has anyone else. All dogs being decendants of the wolf are genetically predisposed to hunt. That's a given for survival. Through selective breeding specific traits have developed and thus the differences among the breds. The beagle has been promulgated as the hound breed that inherently follows it's rabbit prey by scent.

gus · Post by **gus** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 3:01 pm

I would suggest that the half border collie and half lab was genetically programmed to trail game. Did you teach it to run rabbits?

Maybe you could send it to Randy37's trainer, hone its's skills, and make an ARHA OR UKC field champion. Don't both those organizations have an open registry.

Just having fun guys. Different opinions make good discussions on these rainy days.i

Steve C. · Post by **Steve C.** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 3:50 pm

The only way any beagle will reach its full potential is to give it constant exposure to rabbit tracks. The "trainer" need do nothing at all- that is until we wish to modify its behavior in order to do something that was NOT genetically programmed at time of conception. Beagles are not genetically programmed to come when called, to "down", or respond to a horn. These things we must train the animal for in order to accomplish OUR goals. They are of indifference to the animal. Mouthiness, backtracking, speed on the line, hunt, coldtrailing, patience and desire are among the traits that were inherited from the ancestors and while we may modify some of these traits, those modifications will not be passed along to the subsequent generation. Beagles were originally bred to run rabbits and most are predisposed to run rabbits rather than other game. If we must continually break hounds from this habit, or other misbehavior such as backtracking then it is the breeder who is responsible. The trainer may correct this temporarily but this will continue as long as such hounds continue to be bred. If the BREEDER does his job, the TRAINER need only teach the hound to handle and provide transportation. And this training is best done before the dog ever hits the woods. The breeder deserves the glory for a great hound, and the shame for a sorry one. A good trainer can control a hound's exposure to situations that will put him at risk or give opportunity to excel, but he can never undo what is genetically programmed into the animal.

Incahoots · Post by **Incahoots** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 5:34 pm

warddog · Post by **warddog** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:39 pm

Incahoots, Teach and train are synonymous and I'm glad you took the time to look it up.
Train 3 a : to form by instruction, discipline, or drill....What instructions have you given you dogs about running a rabbit? Do you drill them of their intended quarry by holding up post cards for them to see on a daily basis? Do you instruct them by lifting up their ear and gently whispering prior to tuning them loose in the wild that rabbits is what they're after. Ha maybe you are the dog whisperer.
b : to TEACH so as to make fit, qualified, or proficient....Funny how the definition of TRAIN is the very word TEACH.
4 : to make prepared (as by exercise) for a test of skill....That's all we do is excercise them by giving them as much of an opportunity to run rabbits as possible. Repetition or excercise of their inherent genetic traits. Man, you have to do nothing but provide it that opportunity.
5 : to aim at an object or objective....Jump a rabbit, aim the dog at it and sit down to watch and listen. You don't need to train it do do that as it's genetically stamped into that beagle. You can however hone that genetically programmed skill by repetition. I don't call that training anything. I call that giving them the opportunity to do what they were bred to do in lieu of laying in a pen.

I believe Steve C. said the same thing that I have been saying, "The only way any beagle will reach its full potential is to give it constant exposure to rabbit tracks. The "trainer" need do nothing at all- that is until we wish to modify its behavior in order to do something that was NOT genetically programmed at time of conception".

Incahoots · Post by **Incahoots** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 8:10 pm

warddog · Post by **warddog** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 12:57 pm

Incahoots, Nice stuff and I enjoyed watching those young dogs run a rabbit. What is the breeding on them as I also like their looks?
No one has said that you are doing anything wrong in fact all of those things you asked about will only hone those pups natural ability to become the best that they can be. It's obvious that it is there in the genetics especially if they are both of the same breeding but I doubt you taught them how to do it. I will never knock anyone or their dogs as to each their own. I will say that what a person intends to do with their dogs will also have a bearing on how they WORK them. I don't trial and only hunt so I have no need for my dogs to be drilled on an accelerated program to be the best they can be at an early age so they can compete with others twice their age. I normally take them to a starting pen to get them started and then from there I run them whenever I get the time. I can tell you I have never ran any beagle that I owned 4 to 5 times a week. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it I just don't have the time to do so. I do know that I have owned some dogs that did a mighty fine job of consistantly circleing a rabbit to the gun and I would have dropped them down with anybodies dog. I certainly wouldn't want to take any credit for their potential as I didn't teach or train them to do anything. They did what they did because of one thing, genetics.
I wish you and your dogs well and certainly have not intended to knock anything by anyone. I was only answering the question of where the credit was due. I say genetics and you say you can train it in them so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

tommyg · Post by **tommyg** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:23 pm

Those are nice hounds,I run with a littermate to them. Jake found a good cross. Those are Whiteriver and Branko crossed. Incahoots looks like you got them going good.

tnbeagleman · Post by **tnbeagleman** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:28 pm

"They did what they did because of one thing, genetics. "
Not being smart but if this is true, Why did you take them to a training pen. I think I understand but I'm a little confused, again I'm not trying to be smart, Are you saying it is mostly genetic that only needs some fine tuning or that it is all genetic. Don't take it personal a lot of this thread has been hard for me to understand. So heres my take you got to have a dog that has the brains, desire and energy and you can get one out of a litter in most any breeding that is decent and ocassionaly one that is exceptional, place it in the hands of someone that can handle it properly, put it in the right conditions and it will have a good chance to be a good dog, every time you remove one of those your chances are reduced. I've saw dogs that probably were breed ok that was placed in the hands of bad handlers in bad conditions that were absolute culls.

warddog · Post by **warddog** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 9:41 pm

Where in any post was the term TRAINING pen ever used. I said starting pen, where they are put into an inclosure where they can have an opportunity to be introduced to several rabbit tracks in a controled environment. This is where their instincts (genetics) eventually takes over and they start to chase and or track their quarry. The more they are worked the more they hone their inherent skills.

backyard beagler · Post by **backyard beagler** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 10:00 pm

I watched one of those clips but my computer was to slow to watch anymore it was neat , but from what I saw YOU was only holding the camera not really doing ANYTHING but the dog on the other hand was doing what it was breed to do.

DG TX · Post by **DG TX** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 8:15 am

I give the breeder 70% and the owner/handler 30%. "You can't help a sorry one but you can ruin a great one"... As for Branko? His theory turned me totally off of present day LPH breeding after my being a staunch LPH supporter for 20 years

. Never cared for "wolf type" rabbit races

Incahoots · Post by **Incahoots** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 4:30 pm