Who should get the most credit for a great dog???

ACOMEAU · Post by **ACOMEAU** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 2:34 pm

Hunt6, you might think its a pile of crap I'm selling, thats ok, you do your thing I'll do mine. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. I know that I have paid way to much money over the years, on well bred dogs, and most ended up as fertilyzer. The ones that did turn out had the same oppurtunity.

GOOD DOGS CAN BE RUINED BY A BAD TRAINER, BUT A BAD ONE CAN'T BE TURNED INTO A GOOD ONE!

Now trying to compare Human beings and dogs is crazy. Sure you have an influence over how your kids turn out, but many serial killers had good parents!

A GOOD DOG IS A GOOD DOG!

It really doesn't matter anyway, each to his own.

Farwest · Post by **Farwest** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 3:02 pm

ACOMEA, Why do Serial Killers become Serial Killers?

ACOMEAU · Post by **ACOMEAU** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 3:56 pm

Well, if I had that answer, we could prevent serial killers, and I would be a rich man. My guess is that some are born, some are made. If everyone would read back, I have said that some of the credit should go to the handler, but most of it rest with the dog.

Farwest, why do people ask stupid questions?

Hunt6 · Post by **Hunt6** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:07 pm

Hunt6, you might think its a pile of crap I'm selling, thats ok, you do your thing I'll do mine. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. I know that I have paid way to much money over the years, on well bred dogs, and most ended up as fertilyzer. The ones that did turn out had the same oppurtunity.

GOOD DOGS CAN BE RUINED BY A BAD TRAINER, BUT A BAD ONE CAN'T BE TURNED INTO A GOOD ONE!
snip

Nobody selling anything,,Just a difference opinion is all :) Your last statement I think we ALL pretty much agree on.

My point was that man set the plate with his breeding decisions. Good bad or otherwise.The good geneic material is either there or it is not.

A fair at best trainer can take a good bred dog and have success.A circus trainer can take a poor - partially poor - faulty genetic type bred dog and make him look pretty good in some cases.Don't beleive me ? Go to some field trials and tqake a look about !

Again my friend it is just a difference of opinions nothing more :)
Hunt6 David P.

Farwest · Post by **Farwest** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:10 pm

ACOMEAU, The reason I asked the stupid question was in response to your post "Now trying to compare Human beings and dogs is crazy. Sure you have an influence over how your kids turn out, but many serial killers had good parents! ". I didn't think it was that crazy LOL, we are all living things and numerous studies have shown our out come is controlled by many factors. It may be a leap to compare the two but not crazy.
I asked if you knew what caused a serial killer because I knew it wasn't genetic. All serial killers come from bad homes and events in their life cause them to become such. Maybe you just picked a bad example.
If we all had the same opinion these boards would be pretty boring.

Hunt6 · Post by **Hunt6** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:28 pm

As a side note to circus dogs and their trainers :

I like many here I dare say have seen it in action.The loose mouth idiot that strikes off the tailgate at a night hunts,the beagle shocked out of popping off or other bad genetic traits.The tree happy idiots that filled the coonhunting mags for years.The type that treed up fence posts.The type that never circled and checked for a marked - tapped tree first before settling in on that tree.Many of those type dogs make FC's,Nite Champions etc and then breed - reproduce way to much.

Big difference between those type dogs and the ones born with the genetic makeup and only needing to be given access to the game and time to do it right ! It has to start with the breeder doing his job properly.
Hunt6 David P.

Redtick · Post by **Redtick** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 8:38 am

Dog gone it Hunt6, are you saying my Dual Grand Champion coondog is a loose mouthed, babbling, tree happy idiot? Nothing could be farther from the truth.

LOL
A good dog breeder regardless of the breed attempts to breed natural ability in and natural faults out. It can be difficult at times and there is usually a trade off of some kind. Dog who have had their faults corrected by a smart trainer are not as valuable in a breeding program as a dog that is a natural with the faults bred out of him.

ACOMEAU · Post by **ACOMEAU** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:57 pm

Hunt6 and Farwest, thanks for not coming back at me with sticks and stones. After I left the computor yesterday and knew I wouldn' have a chance to get back to it untill this afternoon, I realized that I was a little quick with the tounge. I am not the kind to mince my words and sometimes my directness gets me in trouble. I call em like I see em and I don't make excuses for poor results.

Anyway I do agree that the breeder deserves some credit, and the handler, but I still believe most if it rest with the dog. I have seen it in big game hounds and beagles, you can breed the two best dogs you have ever owned and get a litter if duds. Hunt6 I know exactly what you are talking about with the slick treeing fools, and the babbling idiots, who make field champion or night champion, and thats another whole problem. Instead of culling them, they get bred, and that is a problem.

Farwest · Post by **Farwest** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 10:19 pm

LOL ACOMEAU, no problem. I do the same thing lots of times. For me it is laziness, I just make the statement as short as possible with out going into detail of why I feel that way. When I go back and read them later I think " I probably could have said that a better way." LOL.
I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one though because I can't see how the dog gets the credit. The light might come on down the road some time and I will see what you mean. As I see it the hound is simply the product of its parents. Genes from both are going to make up his physical and mental attributes. The trainer allows these attributes to come forth or not.
I do see how at the end of the day the dog should get the credit for their accomplishments because after all they are the ones that did all the work for that day. But, I don't think the could do it without the breeding or the training.

Redtick · Post by **Redtick** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:51 am

There are some very thoughtful coonhound breeders who only breed proven coondogs, titles or no titles.

The way I see it, if a dog had the right genes to start with and a good trainer to develope the genes, the dog couldn't help but be good.

mike crabtree · Post by **mike crabtree** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:04 am

I doubt Denny Duggan or paul Komorney could take a brace bred hound and make a good dog out of it. So I say Breeding. If you dont have breeding you will never have anything. I doubt one of those crooked legged Bassett hound looking cold nosed things could ever run a rabbit that has been shot at.
The rabbits here take off like deer. It takes atleast a medium speed dog to circle a rabbit consistently arond here.

Duke · Post by **Duke** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:57 am

Guys, I have to give as much credit to the Hound as anything else.

Breeding, conditioning are all important but we have all had litters from well bred hounds and 1 pup is a standout and the rest are not worth feeding. Yes our chances improve with good breeding, conditioning proper training ect..... But if that dog has the brains and that special desire, it is hard to do anything to ruin a it. They seem to overcome all obstacles we can put in front of them.

Sometimes I think we give ourselves too much credit. All we do is give a hound the best opportunity to be great.

Post by **Bev** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:23 am

But what makes the hound? He doesn't choose his own genes. His potential is set at conception. The rest is hoping the trainer does nothing to undercut it. JMO.

Incahoots · Post by **Incahoots** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 5:35 pm

tommyg · Post by **tommyg** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:08 pm

The sire and dame has to throw it,if the pup gets it the trainer has to bring it out. Let a pup train its self bet you don't like the end result,someone needs to train it to handle,then solo time improves its hunt and the way it runs a track,and if it trashes the trainer breakes it. I'd say with out the trainer you won't have much no matter how high powered the papers are.