Who should get the most credit for a great dog???

[DRamey]

To all who said, "the dog," I agree. I am going to make a statement here that is not going to be well received, but it is true. There are Many, many people who read this who have ruined hounds that could have been great. It takes a combination of a lot of things to make one great, but you can't take a cull and make him anything. You have to start with a hound that loves to run rabbits. If he is mishandled (shocked to death for any little infraction of the handler's mood that day, beaten, fed inadequate feed, not medicated when needed, not cared for well, etc.) then the greatest will end up at a stock market at the end of a piece of rope tied to the tailgate. Oddly enough, this seems to lead to the handler, but hear this. There are hounds out there from bloodlines that are obscure or unknown that will become great even if treated horribly or abused. Heart is a variable that may be bred in, but it isn't passed down consistently, and cannot be predicted. Heart is what makes a great hound. Find a bloodline that is consistent with the style that you prefer and find one with a big heart and he will be great because HE (the hound) wants to be great. I am interested in hearing opinions about what I have said here and in no way intend to offend anyone.

[tnbeagleman]

hey Dramey as bad as I hate to agree with you and leave room for a comparison to be made, I'm going go with you on this one. I've messed afew of them up myself , almost ever dog I ever owned was smarter then me, but that ain't saying much!!

[swing]

We wont argue that point at all. LOL

[DRamey]

Tn, I should have put that in my post that I'm guilty of ruining some too. there was a time when I was way too impatient and intolerant of puppy ways and was too heavy-handed on them. I let one of the best hounds I will ever own go because he was too tight-mouthed. He had a ton of heart and did everything else right. He could jump a rabbit in the toughest stuff or just off a dusty road. I guess years make us a little wiser I hate hearing handlers at trials say things like "I won today" Or "I did this or I did that" when his hound is at the end of his lead bleeding from the ears and tail, panting, while he sips a Coke!

[goes1]

I agree that the hound deserves credit and we tend to have our hounds carry our pride for us way to often. But I have a question. If the breeder didn't decide on breeding then the hound would have never existed. So with no hound no credit. IMO it has to be the breeder
As for saying you can't take a cull and make it into something, always remember that what is ones mans trash is another mans treasure.

goes

[Boomerx]

As far as handling or training and conditioning; I had handled Branko's Extra Trim to what I thought was her Canadian Field Trial Championship. Turned out she lacked one point. I'd put her in the kennel in late Oct. and hadn't run her one single time until Apr. of the next spring. I had also put her on a low calorie diet because I wasn't running her. I spent the winter conditioning her mother, Branko's Sassy Sally, and had a grand time watching her run on snow. In April, Branko called me to say the CKC told him Trim lacked a point. I was taking Sassy Sally to a trial in Quebec that weekend and Branko asked me to take Trim, as she might get lucky and pick up her final point with a low place. The trial was a fast, blazing run with no losses at all. The judges called it right at the 3 hour mark and told us "there was no sense going any longer, as it was just a 2 hound race". When I caught Trim, I said to my Buddy, " strange, she still looks fresh, I suppose she just coasted along and didn't do any work". They gave out the results and Trim won it and Sassy Sally was second. So much for everything I'd ever learned about training and conditioning a hound!

[mur the bear]

I bought a brood bitch years ago that had placed in a couple of trials.The breeder had an impressive display of trophies and ribbons in his little office.After we completed the paper work he took her trophies and ribbons down and handed them to me.I said oh no I'm wouldn't take your trophies I didn't earn them.He pointed out that they were not his either she is the one that earned them.His reward was the pleasure of handling her and watching her grow into a rabbit dog.All the other trophies were from dogs he still owned or had died in his kennel.
When I retired her to an elderly couple as a pet I also passed them along.
Now I have seen other breeders hord trophies as if it was a monument to themselves.
I personally think its all about the dogs.We are just the vehicle that allows them to perform or not.

[Wilkerson Boys]

Just pull off your hat and put a bunch of pieces of paper in the hat equally divided with owner, trainer, breeder, etc. on them and start drawing them out. Wayne

AS THE LIFE OF THE HOUND PASSES IF THE RIGHT PIECES ARE DRAWN OUT AS YOU GO YOU WILL HAVE A GREAT ONE. IT TAKES IT ALL TO MAKE A GREAT ONE. JMO Wayne

[Redtick]

Several fellows touched on the subject that they have ruined dogs that had great potential. Haven't we all done that? I believe ruining some dogs is part of becoming a great trainer and we all should learn from our mistakes. I do believe you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear no matter how good of trainer you are. Getting the right combination of dog with the great potential and a trainer that knows how to develope the potential is a rare combination. That is why there are so few great dogs out there.

[gus]

If A bad trainer can ruin a dog then couldn't a good trainer get him straightend out again. I have heard many opinions about the effects of running good pups with wild running dogs and the damage it will cause. Well if that is so, doesn't it make sense if you run a wild and crazy pup with a smooth running pack it will teach him good habits. Or, are dogs only capable of learning bad habits?

[mike crabtree]

I think a young dog will be natural if it is ran Solo. If a dog gets enough Solo time, then it all falls back to breeding.

[laal]

I think Gus said a lot. I have seen beaglers buy good dogs and run them with wild and crazy dogs and the new dog would soon be running wild and crazy. I have also watched these dogs turn around and make good dogs when a beagler with a good pack got one of these dogs. A great beagler told me to run a young dog with good dogs! A dog will pick up bad habits a lot quicker than good habits.

[Hunt6]

The Dog!
Its not like you fathered it yourself. I have owned a few real good dogs over the years and I taught them to come when called
and other like posts snip


I understand I think what you are saying.But it's piling up around my knees :)

When a dog can do its own genetic trait - family research and decide what breedings to make.(My dogs only care that the bitch will stand still.Be it A Poodle or a St. Bernard :-) )) OR,Make the phone calls and added research of the genetic traits of possible mates and even their offspring.When it cleans the kennel,drives itself to the training grounds etc etc etc.Then I will say it is the "dog".Until then it is 75 % Breeder and 25% the trainer. IMHO of course.
Hunt6 David P.

[Farwest]

A little different slant but who do you give the credit to for how your children turned out or how you , yourself turned out? Do you think at the moment of birth your out come was predetermined or do you think events and people in your live shaped you? The Nature versus Nurture debate has been going on for a long time. I really don't see how this would not apply to any living thing.

[Bopeye]

To all who said, "the dog," I agree. I am going to make a statement here that is not going to be well received, but it is true. There are Many, many people who read this who have ruined hounds that could have been great. It takes a combination of a lot of things to make one great, but you can't take a cull and make him anything. You have to start with a hound that loves to run rabbits. If he is mishandled (shocked to death for any little infraction of the handler's mood that day, beaten, fed inadequate feed, not medicated when needed, not cared for well, etc.) then the greatest will end up at a stock market at the end of a piece of rope tied to the tailgate. Oddly enough, this seems to lead to the handler, but hear this. There are hounds out there from bloodlines that are obscure or unknown that will become great even if treated horribly or abused. Heart is a variable that may be bred in, but it isn't passed down consistently, and cannot be predicted. Heart is what makes a great hound. Find a bloodline that is consistent with the style that you prefer and find one with a big heart and he will be great because HE (the hound) wants to be great. I am interested in hearing opinions about what I have said here and in no way intend to offend anyone.

You absolutely drilled it.