Who should get the most credit for a great dog???
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
i believe it is mostly the person that trains the dog because you can make a bad rabbit dog out of good breeding if you dont train em right breeding has some to do with it but if you take two different dogs out of the same litter have two different trainers train them seperatly you will have two different dogs depending on training practices the bloodline has some to do with it but i think the way you train the dog is the way the dog performs in the field
One of our most prominent, respected and succesful beaglers here in Northern Michigan, Joe Corullo has finished several top notch bitches through the years. Often he would keep just one pup from a litter and low and behold it would go on to finish, while most of the other pups which were sold never finished or made a reputation for themselves. Alot of guys used to wonder how he could pick the one good pup out of the litter. Now granted, raising a litter you get to watch the pups mature and their actions, conformation, etc. and get an idea, but at 8 weeks old when you sell them it's still pretty much a crap shoot.
What alot of guys didn't realize is alot of the other pups would have finished too if they had remained in Joe's hands. He had the bloodline, which is a big part of it, but his training and hound knowledge is what made these dogs into field champions, not luck, or a knack for picking the right pup. In most cases I'd say the trainer has probably 80% or more to do with a hounds success, however there are those rare "great" ones that would be great no matter who owned them as long as they got woods time and exposure.
What alot of guys didn't realize is alot of the other pups would have finished too if they had remained in Joe's hands. He had the bloodline, which is a big part of it, but his training and hound knowledge is what made these dogs into field champions, not luck, or a knack for picking the right pup. In most cases I'd say the trainer has probably 80% or more to do with a hounds success, however there are those rare "great" ones that would be great no matter who owned them as long as they got woods time and exposure.
LOL good point SR Patch but I would have to agree a lot with Slaux. When you look at guys like Allan MacInnis, Bob sweet, Branko himself. When they send a hound to a trial you know they are going to do well. They have the time put on the hounds. I know you need the breeding but the guys that put their 30 to 40 hours a week on their hounds do well.
I agree, training is very important but what do you do when you train? Do you cheer the hounds to hunt, do you guide it with your hand when the rabbit makes a turn, no, you provide the environment and the opportunity, the time to bring out all the inbred gifts the hound was born with & , if your really good, you'll stay out of it's way and not mess it up...lol
Instead of making bad guesses about what these fellows you've mentioned do, why not give them a call an find out.
My guess is, they've developed and bred these lines and not only know what to look for, from what they've bred, but as you mentioned, how to bring it out and get the best from it. Now, that kind of thinking may take a far stretch of your imagination, but I'll lay odds I'm not far off the mark...
You really think that silk purse was made from a sow's ear...lol..
Instead of making bad guesses about what these fellows you've mentioned do, why not give them a call an find out.
My guess is, they've developed and bred these lines and not only know what to look for, from what they've bred, but as you mentioned, how to bring it out and get the best from it. Now, that kind of thinking may take a far stretch of your imagination, but I'll lay odds I'm not far off the mark...
You really think that silk purse was made from a sow's ear...lol..
I have talked and run hounds with two of the three. Only heard stories of Bob Sweets two running grounds and the amount of time he runs his hounds. Look at his resulst you will see a hodge podge of hounds. Maybe he know something about the pick of the litter that i don't.
Macinnis finishes what ever hound he trials, no matter if he bred it or not. He runs his hounds every day.
Branko went to the second last nationals with four hounds he trained or contitioned. One tuff ombre, lumberjack, ringo and warlock. He told me he lumberjack couldn't recover as fast as the other 3 because of his age, 11yrs, so he didn't get the running the other three got. Tuff ombre finished first. Ringo first and warlock second. Lumber jack made the cut but ran out of gas.
I don't expect to make silk but a well put together cotton has its advantages.
Macinnis finishes what ever hound he trials, no matter if he bred it or not. He runs his hounds every day.
Branko went to the second last nationals with four hounds he trained or contitioned. One tuff ombre, lumberjack, ringo and warlock. He told me he lumberjack couldn't recover as fast as the other 3 because of his age, 11yrs, so he didn't get the running the other three got. Tuff ombre finished first. Ringo first and warlock second. Lumber jack made the cut but ran out of gas.
I don't expect to make silk but a well put together cotton has its advantages.
no, you provide the environment and the opportunity, the time to bring out all the inbred gifts the hound was born with & , if your really good, you'll stay out of it's way and not mess it up...lol
That is exactly what you do and as you must have read there are a lot of variations of that. These guys know the right way.
That is exactly what you do and as you must have read there are a lot of variations of that. These guys know the right way.
I'm not disagreeing with you...lol
The time is well spent to learn your hounds and a steady diet of rabbit tracks has never been known to founder a hound, as sweet feed might a horse...
I knew a fellow who would go out in the early morning darkness to put a couple of hours running on his hound to settle him in before the hunt. If you had turned him loose straight out of the box, he wouldn't have shown near as good. His pups had to be ran hard and often or they went to fence running in the kennel. He knew early, the pups he liked and how to handle them for the best results. I'll bet your buddies do also, as they've proven...
Quote;"Macinnis finishes what ever hound he trials, no matter if he bred it or not."
But, has he carried every pup he's ever gotten to it's championship? The quality had to be there first and be deemed worthy of trialing. No doubt he has the eye for what will finish, when he evaluates a hound and makes his selections...
The time is well spent to learn your hounds and a steady diet of rabbit tracks has never been known to founder a hound, as sweet feed might a horse...
I knew a fellow who would go out in the early morning darkness to put a couple of hours running on his hound to settle him in before the hunt. If you had turned him loose straight out of the box, he wouldn't have shown near as good. His pups had to be ran hard and often or they went to fence running in the kennel. He knew early, the pups he liked and how to handle them for the best results. I'll bet your buddies do also, as they've proven...
Quote;"Macinnis finishes what ever hound he trials, no matter if he bred it or not."
But, has he carried every pup he's ever gotten to it's championship? The quality had to be there first and be deemed worthy of trialing. No doubt he has the eye for what will finish, when he evaluates a hound and makes his selections...
I think the breeder gets the most credit for a great dog because I believe 100% of a dog's potential is already present at birth. Not saying the handler gets no credit at all, just not the majority of it. I'm using some older examples here, but you can buy a Ford Escort, garage it, polish it, keep it in pristine condition, and it will never be as good as a Crown Vic with 140,000 miles on it.
You are right about that. There is no doubt the breeding has to be there but to take a hound to its top potential takes work by the handler. Whether this be simple putting the hound in the woods day after day or some other fancy training method. Hounds don't get better in the kennel. So I think you have to give some credit to the handler/trainers.S.R.Patch wrote:
But, has he carried every pup he's ever gotten to it's championship? The quality had to be there first and be deemed worthy of trialing. No doubt he has the eye for what will finish, when he evaluates a hound and makes his selections...
Branko brought four dogs that all finished well, but how many did he not bring that had the same breeding, the same field experience and the same oppurtunity to become great. The handler does get some credit and field time does help a dog, but most are born with it. These fellas you talk about have some great dogs, because they know what to look for in a hound at at early age. I am sure they will admit that they have owned many that were of the same breeding that had the same oppurtunity and just plain stunk! A good dog is a good dog.
Take a Kid Hunting and Fishing
I see your point and agree that breeding is the most important thing, breeders should get the most credit. I also think some credit has to be given to the trainer/handler. Look at hounds that are not doing well and then sold or sent to a handler. Some of these go on to become good hounds. The reverse is also true. Some good hounds after being sold or sent to handlers turn to crap. There genes didn't change but the way they are handled did.