Conformation in Mid-West hounds

[gwyoung]

Casey, I think you have it right, Eventhough I wouldn't keep a hound that wouldn't hunt , this does not mean that occasionally one, or two , or three doesn't want to take the easy route and be lazy , long hard hot days with a lot of running will take an edge off of them. and by the way a long hot day without any running will do the same. I have seen a lot of hounds on these days after loading them up at lunch time and moving to a new spot didn't want to hunt at all! I know guys that actually change dogs at lunchtime! Mine just don't tear it up everyday all the time and speaking just for them there are times they need a little encouragement, if we are going to have a run, I wish it wasn't so,

[WELLS WOODS]

Mybeagles, Casey, Hicks,The only time I used to let handlers help jump rabbits in a trial was after I had already judged & eliminated all of the dogs in the pack that wouldn't hunt. Sure, I'd rather make the dogs jump every rabbit, but you could spend half the day on one pack if rabbit's are scarce. You're right mybeagles; sometimes you need to tell the handlers to put their tally-ho sticks away until you are sure each dog has enough hunt, but I did want the handlers to help keep the dogs headed in the direction I wanted to take the hounds or they would get scattered all over the country & hard to get back together after a while. A judge has to do his best with the time he has; that's why he should be judging hunt when a rabbit isn't up & just because a judge isn't writing in his scorebook doesn't mean he isn't recording info in his mind. No need even seeing a dog run, if it won't hunt in my opinion. By the time you get to the winners pack, with 7-9 hard hunters that are the best trackers also, we shouldn't need to carry a tally-ho stick. Bottom line, a good judge, even though stressed for time, will never award anything to a hound with weak hunt. The last Mid-West trial I dropped into at Berea, I caught the big male winners pack. They had 8 hard hunting hounds on the ground & no one was carrying a tally-ho stick. Really fine group of dogs! When I'm hunting myself, I try not to touch a briar if I can help it; that's why I brought the dogs.
Gwyoung, I still haven't seen enough show blood run in the field to determine how well their conformation compares to our Mid-West hounds. Get one of those show champions that can place in a Mid-West trial & we can tell more about it's durability.

[gwyoung]

wells woods, If I had a hound show or otherwise that could place in a mid-west trial I would cull it. Now before you get all huffy all over again , think about it. I don't like what I see in mid-west hounds, if a man has a hound that performs as he doesn't like than I think culling is the correct procedure. Let me ask you this would you cull a hound than ran like traditional brace , I am sure you would, you simply wouldn't tolerate something you dis-like so strongly in a hound, I am the same way but because I dis-like your hounds the same as you dis-like brace, why would that bother you? I hope it doesn't and I really don't think it will. Now perhaps I haven't seen enough of the mid-west style, how about showing some videos of packs and just so we get the cream of the crop how about making it winners packs, and not just a straight line or crossing a path. I would enjoy as I am sure others would seeing them, I might learn something. some have put short clips on here before and they helped form my current opinion of mid-west hounds, along with what I have personally seen, but I ain't see it all, show me some good running, and not just a 10 second clip. I am sure that many have been ran on days when scent was three feet high and they looked good just haven't see it though. Thanks in advance. And as far as actually getting a man who raises show hounds to compete in mid-west , most show guys breed for what they consider the cream of the crop, and may run them in trials, the fact that they don't run them in mid-west trials may mean that they don't consider mid-west cream of the crop? or perhaps their dogs do run like that and it embarrasses them, I don't know about that you would have to talk to a show man on that! But at any rate, you like that style of hound, good I have no problem with that and for the rest of us that run elsewhere we will just have to settle for second best if any think that is where we are at. I think it is clear who thinks they have the best running hounds with the best conformation, I am glad they think so highly of them, and I don't believe it hurts anyone that some think that , whether it is true or not it doesn't hurt anyone, it is harmless! Good luck with 'em.

[WELLS WOODS]

I'll try to get some footage for you of a winners pack; maybe at South Ky. Seeing is believing. The last winners pack I saw, ran the same rabbit for two hours with very few long checks. I'm talking about pounding running, not boo-hooing around on the track. How could any hunter not like this? You're jumping the gun way too quick with your opinion of Mid-West hounds.

[Casey Harner]

Casey, I think you have it right, Eventhough I wouldn't keep a hound that wouldn't hunt , this does not mean that occasionally one, or two , or three doesn't want to take the easy route and be lazy , long hard hot days with a lot of running will take an edge off of them. and by the way a long hot day without any running will do the same. I have seen a lot of hounds on these days after loading them up at lunch time and moving to a new spot didn't want to hunt at all! I know guys that actually change dogs at lunchtime! Mine just don't tear it up everyday all the time and speaking just for them there are times they need a little encouragement, if we are going to have a run, I wish it wasn't so,

gwyoung,

agreed... ive noticed with a few of my hounds in the past that their hunt goes south when they hunt all day and don't find a rabbit. its like their self confidence goes way down. I've soloed a lot when I had only one or two dogs. I also think some dogs hate running by themselves to. After long runs on hot days, I do agree that their hunt/desire slowly fade and they don't seem as passionate to hunt, but some do and keep striving forward. That's the ones I would like to keep...

[gwyoung]

Thanks, for trying to get the video. I don't think basing an opinion on a couple of hundred hounds or so is jumping the gun, nor do I think that after watching a couple of winners packs would be jumping the gun. Not near the experience you have on them , but I sure can look at a couple of winners packs and observe a couple hundred hounds in UBGF or PBGA or traditional brace and get a good idea both on how they run and conformation. I am sure there are decent ( my opinion only) hounds in mid-west. I am speaking about mid-west hounds in general, what I see out of the vast majority. perhaps the lack is on my part and I just have to look harder! Try to get actual footage of the rabbit as he makes turns , wouldn't be interested in straight lines on any type of hound. I know videoing is not easy work, Perhaps we could talk Mark carder into doing some video work at a mid-west trial, I am sure that would be interesting. Anyhow I think some picture of the 4 placing hounds and nbq on the bench would be a good addition also. thanks, in advance.

[WELLS WOODS]

I will definitely try gwyoung! I doubt if you have seen 100 Mid-West FC's. There's probably only about 50 living right now.

Casey:"...but some do & keep striving forward...those are the ones I like to keep." Right on!

[gwyoung]

wells woods I don't think I said I seen a 100 mid-west field champions, Actually I don't think I said that I had seen any ????

[WELLS WOODS]

Then how can you judge the quality of hound the Mid-West is promoting ?

[gwyoung]

So a hound just winning a trial, or placing hounds has nothing to do with what the mid-west is promoting. So seeing hounds that win wouldn't give one an idea of what a FC is. So what the hell is a F.C. if he is not a winner ?? The only real measure of what a mid-west hound is in a Field champion and the ones that have only won two trials or one trial is simply place time and time again are not representative of mid-west hounds, they must not be as according to you only one looking at field champions can get an idea of what you are promoting. I guess if I saw a hound with only two wins I couldn't get a good idea of crap until he got his third win, You clearly said if one hasn't seen a field champion he couldn't know what you were promoting! By the way just because I didn't say doesn't mean I haven't. You know that video you were going to shoot at south Ky. Don't bother if there aren't any F.C. in it, it wouldn't be of any value anyway, because unless one is looking at a f.C. he can't tell anything. Forget about the video, even though it would be a Midwest trail it wouldn't tell us a darn thing according to you! And as far as judging quality, well I am judging TYPE of hounds , they don't have to be F.C. to tell any one anything, it is not always how far down the road one has traveled it is often the direction one is headed! To say going to a Midwest trail and watching the placing and winning hounds has nothing to do with what the Midwest is promoting is ridiculous. about like the longer a hound is the faster he runs. You ever watch a traditional brace trial , I guess if there weren't any field champions in it you really don't have any idea of the type of hounds they are promoting, LOL,LOL,LOL,LOL, !

[WELLS WOODS]

Yep, the FC should represent the standard of any field trial organization (3 wins & 120 points in AKC). Not that a dog has to be a FC to be a good hound; I've seen plenty I would own that weren't good enough to finish, but the goal of a competition field trial organization is to promote & recognize only the very best hounds as Field Champions.

[gwyoung]

I understand that, I am sure I knew what the requirements are and what the aim was before you owned your first hound, that has nothing to do with you stating that unless one has seen a field champion he can not judge what is being promoted in a particular format! So you really don't have any idea about what traditional brace is promoting ? The truth of the matter is you go to ubgf trials and you know what is being promoted , you go to NEBGF trials and you know what is being promoted , you go to traditional brace trials and you know what is being promoted , you go to MIDWEST trials and you know what is being promoted, you may not think so , but that's the way it is! Furthermore I have been speaking of type, but type and quality do go hand in hand with me and the Midwest type that I have seen produces no quality period, for me. but for some others yes, if they like them good, but if some don't like them why couldn't that be O.K. as well!

[gwyoung]

I think I am going to have to take another look at traditional brace as I have not seen a F.C. traditional brace run so how can I judge the quality of hounds they are promoting?

[WELLS WOODS]

Yeah, you can judge the style. The Mid-West is looking for a hound that can run at a fast pace with the intent to catch the rabbit & it takes a very talented hound good enough to handle the pressure. There are always going to be faulty hounds entered in trials & these do not represent what the Mid-West is looking for. We can't help what people bring to the trials, but with good judges, by the time a trial gets down to the last 4 to 6 hounds or so, the running should be nearly fault free. These are the dogs the Mid-West is promoting & if a dog can reach the requirements to finish, it has earned it's title.
If you don't like a dog that puts pressure on a rabbit, then no, you will never like a Mid-West FC. Evidently, you prefer a slower, less aggressive type hound & that's fine, but don't say our Mid-West FC's need culled just because they can run a rabbit faster than most dogs. That is nonsense.

[gwyoung]

wells woods, so you say something along the lines of when you get down to 4-6 hounds that's the cream, but when I mentioned that I have watched these winners packs those same 4 to 6 hounds run, I didn't know anything according to you as I didn't admit to ever seeing a f.C . So NOW you change your story to include non- field champion in as to what Midwest is promoting, I quess that pretty much erases your question about me having not seen and field champions so I couldn't know what you are promoting doesn't it? As far as me saying that I would cull your hounds because they run a rabbit faster is the real nonsense and made up on your part. I am on record as saying I would like to own hounds that would run a rabbit at a 15 on a scale of 1-10. you seem to be reckless with things and that perhaps is why you prefer Midwest style, to set it straight for you, most know what I am talking about as plain English has been used by me for years now, I would indeed cull them but not for speed as you try to twist it into, but for their reckless behavior, have you not seen where I have mentioned the 50' over-runs, and the 75 yard circles on the checks, or the now try and find him somewhere at the end of a straight run, because they have no idea of where the last scent was? or are you deliberately trying to ignore the truth of what has been said and make it a SPEED thing, that would not be honest on your part!