When to feed dogs?

[littlewoody]

Boy wonder He's more useless than tits on a bore hog!

[DIXIEDOG]

That was no apology. Nor will I give U one just saying . I'll try my hardest not to post on anything U do , but I really get tired of your B/S sometime to the point of opening my mouth . U go boy wonder knower of all master of only your mind .
To that good day.

There's one in every crowd.....ignore him and keep on keeping on....he'll get tired enough of being the only legit houndsman around and he'll tire of chatting it up with us little people. If not just spray a good mist of troll-b-gone and he'll leave you alone for a bit.

[warddog]

I don't know anything about using a hose other than I suppose one would attempt to ram it down the dogs throat with the hope it would push through into the stomach and create a vent. It would be my absolute last resort. I stood at the operating table and watched the whole surgical procedure from start to finish on my Bluetick hound in 1985. This is how my vet describes what occurs in gastric torsion (canine bloat).

A dogs stomach is basically like a bag hung from a pipe with an inlet and outlet. When the stomach begins to bloat up with gas it rotates. Think of the pipe as the rotation axis. When it gets to the point it goes beyond 180° in rotation it has flipped and the inlet and outlet are clamped off. Nothing gets in or out. The stomach continues to expand and causes extreme pain for the dog. I was told hat there is about a six hour window in which the dog can be saved once the flip has occurred. My guess is that by the time most would see the presenting symptoms of gastric torsion, the stomach has already flipped. At this point you would be trying to ram the hose through a closed off opening and be more likely to punch through the wall of the esophagus or the stomach. The absolute best thing you can do if you suspect this condition is get the dog to a vet pronto! I was fortunate and my dog survived. It was quite a process to watch.

I suspect the use of the hose was when the dog showed signs of bloating and not after the gut has rotated or twisted. You are correct that ramming a hose through a gut that was already twisted would probably not be possible! Having worked for 30 years with veterinarians being my immediate supervisors we often discussed issues I have had with my dogs at meetings where there were several veterinarians present and this case of the actual diagnosed twisted gut by my cousins vet was one such issue. I said that I was of the impression that this was rare for smaller breed dogs and they all said that this was actually about like trying to determine how many cases of food poisoning was actually known because the ONLY ones known about are the ones that have actually been treated. Most generally people wait it out to the point of getting better or in the case of a twisted gut in dogs they die as that is about a 6 hour time limit! What I have witnessed was dogs that was very lethargic and slobbering and NOT bloated to the point of appearing to blow up. Facts are no one truly knows the incidence of this but it appears from what is known is only from what has been treated just like food poisoning and that is what the group of vets stated when I asked about a beagle and a twisted gut. Had we not been on the way to the vet and my cousin having this dog on trial we would have NOT known what the problem truly was either. My cousin had the vet go ahead and assure the cause of death as he wanted to know what caused it and if he was going to have to pay for a dead dog. As I have stated he had to pay for the dog as well as the vet bill and got one expensive lesson.

[gwyoung]

Littlewoody, Once again God bless you for posting anything , Most with your problem would not have the courage to post for fear of always being wrong, I don't worry so much about what you say, post whatever sounds good to you at this point , the important thing is not that you're wrong it is that you continue on, carry on brave lad.

Little Dixie, I never tire of the humor provided by the little guys ( your words) such as yourself, especially entertaining to me is that you actually appear to believe some of what you write. The only thing that comes to my mind that I think you are correct on is when you refer to yourself as a little guy in knowledge , doesn't make you a bad person though.

L.R. patch, I have been teaching classes , what it mainly amounts to is just answering questions via e-mail for almost a year now to several folks on this board and one other board considering hounds . I currently have 17 regular participants. I stated it mainly to have discussions with the more knowledgeable houndsmen , but it kinda morphed into a group of folks earnest to learn. If you are willing to expand your knowledge and have an earnest desire to do so, send me a P.M. stating so and I will give you my e-mail address so that you can get started right away. Here is some things you need to know up front, I do not ever tell anyone who is participating, there are no-foolish questions ( please ask away) and do not give my e-mail address to anyone this group is by my invitation only!

[R and D kennels]

I don't know anything about using a hose other than I suppose one would attempt to ram it down the dogs throat with the hope it would push through into the stomach and create a vent. It would be my absolute last resort. I stood at the operating table and watched the whole surgical procedure from start to finish on my Bluetick hound in 1985. This is how my vet describes what occurs in gastric torsion (canine bloat).

A dogs stomach is basically like a bag hung from a pipe with an inlet and outlet. When the stomach begins to bloat up with gas it rotates. Think of the pipe as the rotation axis. When it gets to the point it goes beyond 180° in rotation it has flipped and the inlet and outlet are clamped off. Nothing gets in or out. The stomach continues to expand and causes extreme pain for the dog. I was told hat there is about a six hour window in which the dog can be saved once the flip has occurred. My guess is that by the time most would see the presenting symptoms of gastric torsion, the stomach has already flipped. At this point you would be trying to ram the hose through a closed off opening and be more likely to punch through the wall of the esophagus or the stomach. The absolute best thing you can do if you suspect this condition is get the dog to a vet pronto! I was fortunate and my dog survived. It was quite a process to watch.

I suspect the use of the hose was when the dog showed signs of bloating and not after the gut has rotated or twisted. You are correct that ramming a hose through a gut that was already twisted would probably not be possible! Having worked for 30 years with veterinarians being my immediate supervisors we often discussed issues I have had with my dogs at meetings where there were several veterinarians present and this case of the actual diagnosed twisted gut by my cousins vet was one such issue. I said that I was of the impression that this was rare for smaller breed dogs and they all said that this was actually about like trying to determine how many cases of food poisoning was actually known because the ONLY ones known about are the ones that have actually been treated. Most generally people wait it out to the point of getting better or in the case of a twisted gut in dogs they die as that is about a 6 hour time limit! What I have witnessed was dogs that was very lethargic and slobbering and NOT bloated to the point of appearing to blow up. Facts are no one truly knows the incidence of this but it appears from what is known is only from what has been treated just like food poisoning and that is what the group of vets stated when I asked about a beagle and a twisted gut. Had we not been on the way to the vet and my cousin having this dog on trial we would have NOT known what the problem truly was either. My cousin had the vet go ahead and assure the cause of death as he wanted to know what caused it and if he was going to have to pay for a dead dog. As I have stated he had to pay for the dog as well as the vet bill and got one expensive lesson.

Why don't you ask someone who has been around it for 44 years? The procedure was introduced by a veterinarian/ professor at Ohio State University 50 odd years ago. We have saved 100's over the years. If you have ever been to The Kenton Nationals these are the dogs from my background and I can assure you many a dog have had A flipped stomach during the event I speak of and was saved without a vet. I don't give two shits about your employment with a vet. I bet your cousin doesn't know how to use arsenic for heart worms either or strychnine for other ailments. My grandfather passed away 2 years ago at the age of 94 he was a dog man for 80 years. I have so much old timer knowledge I laugh at you guys. last week you was a dog food expert and week before that you was a union expert . I can't figure out how you have ahd so many jobs, what, are you 120 years old ? Let's see, you worked for IH, A vet and now the USDA. Oh I know you're going to say something about the poisons. My point is there was a whole other world out there you know nothing about in way of canine biochemistry
I'm done with this topic.

[littlewoody]

Littlewoody, Once again God bless you for posting anything , Most with your problem would not have the courage to post for fear of always being wrong, I don't worry so much about what you say, post whatever sounds good to you at this point , the important thing is not that you're wrong it is that you continue on, carry on brave lad.

Little Dixie, I never tire of the humor provided by the little guys ( your words) such as yourself, especially entertaining to me is that you actually appear to believe some of what you write. The only thing that comes to my mind that I think you are correct on is when you refer to yourself as a little guy in knowledge , doesn't make you a bad person though.

L.R. patch, I have been teaching classes , what it mainly amounts to is just answering questions via e-mail for almost a year now to several folks on this board and one other board considering hounds . I currently have 17 regular participants. I stated it mainly to have discussions with the more knowledgeable houndsmen , but it kinda morphed into a group of folks earnest to learn. If you are willing to expand your knowledge and have an earnest desire to do so, send me a P.M. stating so and I will give you my e-mail address so that you can get started right away. Here is some things you need to know up front, I do not ever tell anyone who is participating, there are no-foolish questions ( please ask away) and do not give my e-mail address to anyone this group is by my invitation only!

PROVERBS 14:7 Stay away from a fool, for you will not find knowledge on their lips.

[gwyoung]

Littlewoddy, That is very good, I for one want to encourage you keep at it and I can see after mentioning God in my prior posts to you that you have now turned to the Bible, I am thankful that you are able to pick up on these little things and perhaps use them to further yourself, Once again your courage to just pen a sentence on an open forum should be an inspiration to all of us, hang in there little buddy, stick with your Bible I am glad I was able to help you at least in that regard!

[warddog]

I don't know anything about using a hose other than I suppose one would attempt to ram it down the dogs throat with the hope it would push through into the stomach and create a vent. It would be my absolute last resort. I stood at the operating table and watched the whole surgical procedure from start to finish on my Bluetick hound in 1985. This is how my vet describes what occurs in gastric torsion (canine bloat).

A dogs stomach is basically like a bag hung from a pipe with an inlet and outlet. When the stomach begins to bloat up with gas it rotates. Think of the pipe as the rotation axis. When it gets to the point it goes beyond 180° in rotation it has flipped and the inlet and outlet are clamped off. Nothing gets in or out. The stomach continues to expand and causes extreme pain for the dog. I was told hat there is about a six hour window in which the dog can be saved once the flip has occurred. My guess is that by the time most would see the presenting symptoms of gastric torsion, the stomach has already flipped. At this point you would be trying to ram the hose through a closed off opening and be more likely to punch through the wall of the esophagus or the stomach. The absolute best thing you can do if you suspect this condition is get the dog to a vet pronto! I was fortunate and my dog survived. It was quite a process to watch.

I suspect the use of the hose was when the dog showed signs of bloating and not after the gut has rotated or twisted. You are correct that ramming a hose through a gut that was already twisted would probably not be possible! Having worked for 30 years with veterinarians being my immediate supervisors we often discussed issues I have had with my dogs at meetings where there were several veterinarians present and this case of the actual diagnosed twisted gut by my cousins vet was one such issue. I said that I was of the impression that this was rare for smaller breed dogs and they all said that this was actually about like trying to determine how many cases of food poisoning was actually known because the ONLY ones known about are the ones that have actually been treated. Most generally people wait it out to the point of getting better or in the case of a twisted gut in dogs they die as that is about a 6 hour time limit! What I have witnessed was dogs that was very lethargic and slobbering and NOT bloated to the point of appearing to blow up. Facts are no one truly knows the incidence of this but it appears from what is known is only from what has been treated just like food poisoning and that is what the group of vets stated when I asked about a beagle and a twisted gut. Had we not been on the way to the vet and my cousin having this dog on trial we would have NOT known what the problem truly was either. My cousin had the vet go ahead and assure the cause of death as he wanted to know what caused it and if he was going to have to pay for a dead dog. As I have stated he had to pay for the dog as well as the vet bill and got one expensive lesson.

Why don't you ask someone who has been around it for 44 years? The procedure was introduced by a veterinarian/ professor at Ohio State University 50 odd years ago. We have saved 100's over the years. If you have ever been to The Kenton Nationals these are the dogs from my background and I can assure you many a dog have had A flipped stomach during the event I speak of and was saved without a vet. I don't give two shits about your employment with a vet. I bet your cousin doesn't know how to use arsenic for heart worms either or strychnine for other ailments. My grandfather passed away 2 years ago at the age of 94 he was a dog man for 80 years. I have so much old timer knowledge I laugh at you guys. last week you was a dog food expert and week before that you was a union expert . I can't figure out how you have ahd so many jobs, what, are you 120 years old ? Let's see, you worked for IH, A vet and now the USDA. Oh I know you're going to say something about the poisons. My point is there was a whole other world out there you know nothing about in way of canine biochemistry
I'm done with this topic.

Been to Kenton Nationals in Kenton Ohio many, many times in my life and have watched the filed trials as well as the water races. A guy doesn't have to be 120 years old to have experienced much in the hunting dog world and to have been employed in several trades. I suspect I was at the Kenton Ohio nationals or TRADE days long before you were. YES, I had a grandfather as well as a dad, uncle and all my other relatives that were dog men their entire life, so what does that prove? NOTHING. SON, I've worked for as many years as you are old and you missed out on one other job I had and that was serving in the U.S. Army where by the way My supervisors there were veterinarians as well. Here's one more thing you failed to understand, I no longer work for USDA as I am retired and that as well as in the U,.S. Army is where I worked under the supervision of Veterinarians as BOTH jobs were in Food Inspection and NOT different occupations. I will admit that I certainly do NOT know what in the work ramming a hose down a dogs throat has to do with canine biochemistry but go ahead I'm willing to learn from someone who has been there.

[R and D kennels]

Been to Kenton Nationals in Kenton Ohio many, many times in my life and have watched the filed trials as well as the water races. A guy doesn't have to be 120 years old to have experienced much in the hunting dog world and to have been employed in several trades. I suspect I was at the Kenton Ohio nationals or TRADE days long before you were. YES, I had a grandfather as well as a dad, uncle and all my other relatives that were dog men their entire life, so what does that prove? NOTHING. SON, I've worked for as many years as you are old and you missed out on one other job I had and that was serving in the U.S. Army where by the way My supervisors there were veterinarians as well. Here's one more thing you failed to understand, I no longer work for USDA as I am retired and that as well as in the U,.S. Army is where I worked under the supervision of Veterinarians as BOTH jobs were in Food Inspection and NOT different occupations. I will admit that I certainly do NOT know what in the work ramming a hose down a dogs throat has to do with canine biochemistry but go ahead I'm willing to learn from someone who has been there.[/quote]


Well perhaps you was. I can't help when I was born but I was there every year from 1970 on and my grandpa is the one who installed and used the very first electric crank system for the float. Ain't I special ? like yourself ? If you want to learn, learn yourself. you are always trying to one up someone without facts. Anything I say on here is documented somewhere. I make darn sure when I say something on here or elsewhere I can prove it because someone may just want to challenge you someday. And your nutrition, biochemistry and conditioning knowledge is sub par compared to your truly. The biochemistry comment is based on you always saying how things are as fact,yet I just mentioned a few items you have no knowledge of in way of biochemistry. when you can condition a dog like the photo I posted and others on various threads maybe you can get some credence. And before you defame me and say drugs I will have my dogs tested anywhere and anytime before I institute legal proceedings.



Here's one from Kenton

and another

[warddog]

I don't need you or anyone else to give me credence. Seems your grandfather of 94 years was a smart man and I'm sorry you lost him as I'm sure he taught you several things. It's called experience. Now to address what you got your sho0rts all in a wad over I never professed to know anything about your tube down the throat procedure for turning a twisted gut. FACTS are I have no clue as I never heard of it nor did I say it wouldn't or couldn't work but rather I supposed it was done prior to the actual twisting of the stomach and as a means of removing the bloat which by the way was the very same thing that hare chaser stated but you didn't get your Panties in a wad from that post. I "suppose" means that I think, not that I know but of course you got defensive when YOU thought I was questioning you. Truth is, I didn't because I do not know the procedure you describe nor have I ever heard of it. Now that you got your panties in a wad because you didn't understand my reply nor are you old enough to understand how someone could have experienced so much but I suspect your grandfather experienced quite a bit in his 94 years. It's called experience and it comes with time on this earth not from reading a couple books or watching a video or two. By the way I will grant you that I don't know a thing about conditioning greyhounds as I never owned one but sure watched a tone of them bred up to run the FIELD trials and even swim races at Kenton nationals. Been years since I attended and I used to go EVERY year. I watched it go from a little parking area in the field to the left of the main gate to having to park across the road in a huge field the last time I went. I have no idea as to what it's like now but the filed trials and swim races were not my cup of tea but I did enjoy watching all the BSing going on trading dogs!

[NorthBranch Rummer]

I run a couple hundred different dogs a year for guys and I almost always feed in the evening. Its not uncommon for the dogs to go run 20+ miles as soon as there done eating. I've only had one dog (my own) die years ago from what I thought was twisted gut and I didn't feed her til after we got back from running. She didn't eat her food and was dead the next morning. I guess my point is, if there susceptible to it its probably gonna happen no matter what you do as a houndsman.

[S.R.Patch]

I've always had the fear of mine doing that, ...that's why I always check to make sure I've unleashed them from the bumper...
Just kidd'in...

Seriously tho... hounds on self-feeders probably do ok, but hounds that are fed but once eat all their portion and drink a little water. Then If you go run, they get thirsty and drink some more water as it available in the field. The dry feed they've taken and air from the water being added swells, more thirst is created and more water is taken until the hound throws up or becomes too bloated to go on. I'm not a betting man but I'd guess more food is left out in the field for the mice or critter to clean up than you know.
Jmho... Raw meat would be better to prevent bloat as it wouldn't have the grains to absorb and swell in the gut. The cooked kibble is going to rehydrate making air bubbles and swell in volume where the raw wouldn't. but a satisfied apatite or a full stomach has never been conductive to the best hunting I've experienced.