Minus Points for Minor Off Game?

[rabbitatfarm]

In the rule book, for Little Pack trials, they list Major off-game: deer, fox, coyotes, elk, moose,antelope,wolf, bobcat, cougar,bear, wild hogs, wild goats and wild sheep. Running Major off-game is basis for disqualification. There is no such identification for minor off-game, like cats, squirrels, turkeys, woodchuck, game birds, etc. The only listed minus rules are 1. Not producing a rabbit in the three minutes after being put on the clock. 2. Pulling the other dogs from the check area. 3. Backtracking. There is nothing about awarding minus points for minor off game.

In Progressive Pack anything that is not a rabbit or hare is off game and reason for disqualification.

It seems there would be no minus points awarded for minor off-game in LP. What is everyone's take?

[Casey Harner]

I agree off game is off game. Seen that once, a turkey at the world hunt. Judges gave the dogs a non produce since in the rulebook. Gotta follow the rules I guess, though I don't agree with that.

[rabbitatfarm]

Casey,

Just for the sake of argument, if a dog produces a turkey, cat or squirrel and not a rabbit in the three minutes wouldn't the minus be for not producing rather than off game? If, in the course of the hunt, a dog jumps and runs a turkey or other minor off-game, is he minused if he's not on the clock? What if all the dogs join the chase? Do they all get a minus? At the last trial, my young dog chased a killdeer but didn't open. He was not minused. I know there's a lot left to the judge's discretion, but you'd think the rule book would be more precise as it is with major off game. I could see an argument or protest over a minus that is not specifically set forth or called for in the rule book. Hopefully, others will weigh in.

[Casey Harner]

I remember what happened... The turkey flew off before the dogs got there, but one dog barked where it was and never carried the track out as if it was on a rabbit. They minus for non produced.

[Mark H]

Not sure I understand what is hard to understand. U listed all major off games in little pack. There is no minor off game. If a dog barks three or more times on anything that's not on that list. The dog is put on the clock and given three minutes to produce a rabbit if not he or she gets min used 10 pts. And if all dogs put in only the dog that got the three barks in first gets the minus

[barnold1]

Or, another dog can find a real rabbit and bail the one on the clock out of trouble if it will pull in.

[rabbitatfarm]

So the minus would be for not producing if a dog barks three times on a cat and pulling from the check area if it jumps a cat after another dog opens on a rabbit? So if a judge gives a minus for running minor off game that would be an incorrect call? What if Dog A opens and Dog B takes a cat, squirrel, etc. and harks in? It seems Dog A would get a minus at the end of three minutes but Dog B would not be penalized. The judge did not minus my dog for chasing a killdeer because he didn't bark. What if another judge would have given him a minus for it? That's my point. If, according to the rule book, a dog is chasing minor off game and is not barking, then there should be no penalty because there is no rule that was violated.

[Casey Harner]

If dog A hits a track, He's put on the clock.... If dog b hits a cat and the judge don't know what it is, I always thought the judge had to stay with dog a until his three minutes runs out. I say dog B will eventually get picked up or minused since he had failed to produce a rabbit, which in my eyes warrants a disqualification since it's a cat not a rabbit.

[rabbitatfarm]

Casey;

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, but there is no rule in LP that disqualifies a dog for running a cat. As a matter of fact, Question 38 of the Master of Hounds Test reads: A hound should be disqualified for all of the following except: A) Fighting another hound. B) Running major off game. C) Running a house cat. D) Trying to mount a female that is not in heat. The answer is C.

In my previous scenario, I don't see why if Dog A is on the clock, Dog B would get the minus for not producing even if he runs a cat or squirrel. And until a rabbit is up, there is no check area so he can't be minused for pulling. Just seems to be a little technicality. Maybe the rules committee needs to write a clarification or adopt the PP rule that anything other than a rabbit is cause for disqualification. If a dog was minused for minor off game and it made a difference in the outcome of the cast, I think he would have good grounds for a protest. JMHO based on the written rules.

[Chimney Rock Kennel]

If dog A is on the clock and Dog B runs a house cat and after 3 mins and no rabbit is produced then dog A would get a minus for not producing at that time you would handle the dogs Dog B would not be scored a minus or anything else.

[Casey Harner]

A cat is a cat rather it be a bobcat or house cat. I believe it warrants a disqualification. I will be straight honest with you I would scratch my hound if it ran a house cat.

[Casey Harner]

If dog A is on the clock and Dog B runs a house cat and after 3 mins and no rabbit is produced then dog A would get a minus for not producing at that time you would handle the dogs Dog B would not be scored a minus or anything else.

I agree with you Travis/Eddie dog A would get minused if it didn't produce a rabbit, but the judge has to stay there with dog A until he proves that he has produced it or he was being mouthy. To me with the whole house cat, if that's not a disqualification then you should remove bobcats and put them on the minor off game as well.

[rabbitatfarm]

You make a good point about the cats,Casey. There should be a set rule about off game. I would support a minus for minor off game but not so sure about disqualification. In my book running a deer, fox or coyote would be a more serious offense than a turkey or squirrel. Just my two cents. Lots of people are reading but very few have any comments. C'mon, some of you must have an opinion.

[Casey Harner]

Anything but a rabbit is off game to me.... Minor or major...

[Chimney Rock Kennel]

I think why most are not replying is because it's pretty much black and white. There is a rule that states clearly what is to be treated as disqualifications. If they wanted to put house cats on that list along with lions tigers and any other feline that's fine but it doesn't so it is what it is. Heck I misused a dog out at a hunt for Not Producing because he barked on a turtle and if you think I'm kidding I had the handler come over and showed him. I know the opening post mentioned something about PP I know nothing about that format but I figure I could sit down and read there rule book and find some stuff I don't agree with in it to. The best thing to do is what ever format you are going to run read the rules and learn them whether you agree with them or not.By the way would anyone really consider a TURTLE off game?