factors that make a dog hunt hard

[lananbay]

I've worked Overseas in Oil & Gas for the last 14 yrs worked around different people of all ages to different cultures.

From what I read here a lot more people think the desire can be taught buy others great dogs to a dog with less talent per say.

So the same group of guys would think if you have a 5 man crew that all work hard together this team is know to all five GER HER DONE and then this crew after years of being a five man crew are now going to become a 6 man crew.

They get a guy off another crew in there same work place doing the same job but this other guy works a different shift. The new MARK for a example is know to be the lazy guy form other crews he has now been passed down onto two other crews but now he is on his last chance to keep his job. He is now going to be but on the DREAM TEAM CREW know to be the hardest working crew of the company.

How many people think with the guys third chance he will man up and go to the third crew and run with the big dogs??

I think you know the outcome of MARK. FIRED

Run your weak dog alone and see if he is full of desire or just running with the good dogs to keep up and blend in with the great dogs he or she will most likely be looking around for all that power he is use to running with and your blinded by the THAT'S MY DOG SEE HIM GO!!!

Put him or her to the test SPARTAN UP!!!

[gwyoung]

Lanabay, I am not sure anyone is saying that desire can be taught by handlers or other dogs, overall. ( but could be I have a habit of just skimming, some posts) I personally am a strong believer in blood. I don't put much stock in the " answer " of brains that is thrown about. Do I think brains are unimportant, no they are very important. but the fact of the matter is I have never encountered a beagle in more than 40 years owned by anyone, that I felt was lacking in enough intelligence to perform his/her task of " Being a good rabbit dog" to a high degree. They all have enough brains to do the job, so to mention brains to me is like saying they need kidneys, lungs, and a spinal column, Yeah, I know no need to mention it! How about telling us something that is not so obvious. Back to what you can teach a hound , Too many folks do not break it down, they just lump it all together in one big pile. Break it down don't waste your time on what you can't change . keep in mind what you can't change , when a dog is afield he is generally involved in one aspect at a time,( Since this is about hunting we will work with that topic). For example if he is hunting he isn't running, Etc; When he is hunting you can work with him , there are things that can be done in this stage not to make him hunt but to ENHANCE his desire to do so , I did not say give him desire! you can also teach him to hunt close, etc: Times like these are when a good trainer makes a difference. As far as how he runs a rabbit, you are pretty much just a taxi cab to him, how he goes about this is set in his blood, we are wasting our time trying to train something in or out, if you don't like the way he runs get rid of him, Today! A good trainer can make a difference, and by definition a good trainer knows where it can be done, and more importantly where it can't, and how to go about it!

[ironjawdawgs]

When he is hunting you can work with him , there are things that can be done in this stage not to make him hunt but to ENHANCE his desire to do so, I did not say give him desire!

What are some of the things you do when you work with a dog to enhance his desire to hunt harder? I joined a beagle club this year and plan on raising a few litter and starting a good bit of pups and may need to try your advise?

[fulcount]

Gwyoung
Give us a few things that can enhance a dogs desire to hunt

[gwyoung]

This post, as most was taking off on other subjects which is generally a good thing, I think. as we got to talking about things the subject of a " good handler" came up and how important it was , another person, kind of discounted the handler theory and things built up from there. I have a good bit of respect for both of these guys and I believe they are both right. My post was to show that in some aspects a trainer doesn't make a darn bit of difference and in some situations they could make quite a bit of difference. My comment about enhancing desire was to give an example of an area in which a trainer can make a difference, it was not meant to be a great revelation, and for most it won't be. But as just one example as how you the trainer can enhance a hounds Desire to hunt and to jump. ( while I am on the subject young hounds are always your best medium) And that is to take him while he is eager and hunting to areas that hold a lot of rabbits , if anyone thinks that taking a young hound day after day and letting him hunt his butt off where there are few rabbits is doing anything to enhance his desire is mistaken. You want to see the desire of a young hound to hunt to a jump enhanced you let him find 'em all day long under cover, on several occasions. This will thrill him, and it will stay with him, he will always be looking for that thrill even on days when the rabbits come hard! You are enhancing his desire not only to hunt but to hunt cover, and the more of them he sees , sight chases and screams out from under there after the bigger fire you will build as opposed to just hitting their scent! So you the trainer can decide where you want to take him, during this very important period in his life, You can make a difference here! John, some may make the mistake that you were genuinely seeking answers when you asked me the question, I am not making that mistake !

[warddog]

So if I understand gwyoung correctly, what you are actually saying is that a "trainer" is not actually training or teaching anything but rather putting the dog into an environment so that it can enhance it's GOD given, natural instincts? I really never did think I was teaching a dog anything as I cut it loose in an environment where it's quarry was plentiful and let it do it's thing. I like it when folks like Fulcount ask the same type questions as I do because I've also sat on many a stump and tailgate while the real masters honed their God given skills. I cannot name one single thing I did to any of the championed coon hounds I owned that made them do what they consistently did other than put them into an environment so that they themselves could hone the instincts they were born with. Trust me when I say I have been through hundreds that never made the grade under the very same set of circumstances as my best ones were put in. Funny how the other guys I hunted with and even those who had won the TOP hunts such as world hunt, Grand American or any of the breed hunts trained or taught a single hound to strike, track or tree a single coon. Beings I'm long past the pimple faced pizza flippin years I understand that learning is a lifetime experience and there is a BIG difference in theory, opinion and fact. When folks I have learned to know by what they say and where they have been and done, speak, I stop and listen as these are the E.F. Hutton's. They seem to speak from having tested their theory over time so as to establish a repetitive history. The other thing I seem to notice is that these who do seem to be able to establish this history do so from one specific line of hounds and NOT willy-nillie with any ole pound puppy! Until I see one of these "trainers" make a pound puppy into a champion beagle, it is my believe that they are doing nothing more but giving the dog an opportunity to hone what it was God given. These breeds have survived the test of time despite man's interference.

[ironjawdawgs]

Interesting. I'm trying to make since of an experience I had just a week ago Tuesday. A good buddy of mine had a male and female. Both line bred of the same line. The male was a rabbit tracking hunting fool. He bred him to a female that I never seen go but knew she was from a proven producer. At the time he bred and whelped the litter the sire died and he completely lost interest in having hounds. He kept a male and female out of the litter for two year never taking them out of the kennel. I know this for a fact. Then he told me he was gonna knock them in the head as he was never gonna do anything with them. I asked him not to do so and that I would take them. Well I've had them for two years and have never had the female out of the kennel. Well last Tuesday for giggles I thought i would take the female out and put her in a aker pen with NO rabbits in it. (although we had put one in there a week earlier) You would have called me a liar by watching this 4 year old hunt and crawl up under anything and everything in the pen. Please explain why she acted like she had been hunted all her life with no time on the ground? Was it by luck or because of the way she was bred and had genetics she has bred into her.Anyways I think I'll keep her and take my chances on her producing something I like. Then I'll give them the opportunity to become a rabbit dog and cull the ones that don't. Which I pray won't happen if I line breed her.

[gwyoung]

Wardog, If you notice in my last post as in most posts I used the word handler I also used the word trainer, I think it is easy to see I use them interchangeably , because I do not live in the trial word be it Beagles or 'Coon dogs it is the same to me, trialers do use them differently and they can be the same person to them or they can be different, but anyhow, we are talking about what I said and I am not a trialer! I think you are trying to be a little too technical not so much with me but to prove a point with Likeemfast! I will go there with you,..... NO, I nor anyone else can teach a hound how to run it's quarry , I don't know how to run a rabbit , I do know how I like to see them ran, but I wouldn't have a clue as to how to teach him to do it. I don't think anyone is saying that they can. But to say that the handler/trainer cannot contribute greatly to a hound is way off the mark, do you not believe that in the scenario I gave that the handler/Trainer was not making a contribution. Do you not believe that proper correction( E-collar use for example) by the handler/ trainer is a contribution, do you not believe that preventing young starting hounds from running dog wise doubling every 50 yards rabbits until they can circle one regularly is a contribution ( I throwed that one in there to stir another debate! ) this is a long list and includes a lot of dont's as well as do's. I liked your sentence about listening to the real masters, and I want to say this about that. We can all pick our experts , line up on different sides, come back together on something next week, Everything I say is my opinion, the same is true of all of us. It is where that opinion came from that matters. So, if some are using GWYOUNG , WARDOG, LIKEEMFAST, FULCOUNT or anyone else as their expert, as their teacher , I will say this it is not wrong to listen to others but prove it to yourself. This can only come from the subject at hand any other way and it is second hand information subject to personal bias and perhaps poor interpretation! When it comes to our subject at hand, which is dogs, " If the hounds didn't teach it to you, You don't know it" !

[rabbitatfarm]

"It takes birds to make a bird dog." Same with rabbit dogs. When I first started running beagles, a friend told me that if a dog runs lots of rabbits the chance of running trash is reduced. He opined that boredom and lack of rabbits increased the chance a dog would explore other scents, like deer. It's a little like teaching kids to fish. If you can keep them busy catching fish they are less apt to be throwing stones in the water or goofing around. I think it holds for dogs as well. There's no substitute for getting dogs to the field at an early age.

[Casey Harner]

"It takes birds to make a bird dog." Same with rabbit dogs. When I first started running beagles, a friend told me that if a dog runs lots of rabbits the chance of running trash is reduced. He opined that boredom and lack of rabbits increased the chance a dog would explore other scents, like deer. It's a little like teaching kids to fish. If you can keep them busy catching fish they are less apt to be throwing stones in the water or goofing around. I think it holds for dogs as well. There's no substitute for getting dogs to the field at an early age.

Good post

[Bringem back kennels]

Your so right rabbitfarm,

Pups are born with inherited traits but, these have to be nurtured and developed to enable the pup to reach full potential.
The introduction to disirable game is very important to get this process started. Does a dog usually run the first rabbit it smells? Not the ones i have seen.
They have to continually be subjected to the scent until one day it "clicks". It can be jumped started by continuous run ins with rabbits in a starting pen.

The bird dogs I used to own taught me the most about communicating and reading body language of a dog. The team work of the handler and dog crucial.
Not so much with the hound breeds but, it does help. I have two littermates I have been hunting together. Started noticing one was circling the brush as the other went in.
Sure enough out comes the rabbit and he is all over it. Now, this has happened enough it's apparent he has figured something out.
Some people might say "that stupid dog aint hunting". On the contrary, He is displaying the ability of thought process. Coyotes, wolves and even birds use this same technique.

My response is to seperate the two and solo him a lot, then hunt him with dogs he is not so familiar with. His hunt has become better but, the lesson he learned
will probably always be with him.

[warddog]

Good post gwyoung and I think if you look back at my history of posting you will see that I have stated just about the exact same things as you just posted. YES, I agree that correcting what one considers to be something they don't like such as running trash is in fact contributing to that specific dog. I actually call that conditioning as the dog already does it and MAN never taught it to do so as it did it on it's own accord. Yes, I probably do get hung up on when folks say they trained a top rabbit dog as it strikes me that man, regardless of what name is but to him is trying to stake claim on something that was made by nature. Technical, maybe but there are folks who do and have spent countless hours conditioning hounds only to never be able to train one to be a top dog. I also get hung up when so called trainers make the statement that it is ALL in the training and I suppose that is what strikes me as funny the most. There is a difference in teaching and or training something to do something and in conditioning or modifying it. It just gets me when man tries to take credit when credit is 99.9% in the dog. YOU will also notice that I have NEVER used the term expert in reference to any hound person but rather "E.F. Hutton" meaning that there are those that I know from what they say, know what they are talking about from years of experience BUT even those I do not consider an expert. In running hounds there is so much subjectiveness that not one person could please everyone. One mans junk may be treasure in another man's eyes. YES, I will agree with you wholeheartedly that one can contribute and condition a dog to perform what they like BUT NO, I will whole heartedly disagree with anyone that says they can train one to do it. When I see someone make the claim that "IT IS ALL IN THE TRAINER" then to me that is saying that person has made that dog what it is, period, when all they have done is exactly like you described conditioned what was already there to their opinion of what it should be. I say those are probably people that have had dogs turn out to be pretty good but I have yet to see such a "trainer" run an ad do anything other than start or condition a dog. I've seen ads to start and to condition but never one of these to "train" a rabbit dog and when I do I'll be getting in line regardless of the cost. I'll also want that in writing so I can get that cost back when they can't met my specifications. I guess what gets me the most is when a person wants to take credit for what mother nature and genetics bore, then revert to name calling, threats and arguing when they are exposed. It also exposes where those folks as to where they stand along side of the E.F. Huttons. Notice AGAIN I never use the word expert but only that "I" listen when these folks speak and those others are like a light switch, I merely turn them off as I can't hear the fart with the wind blowing so hard.

[likeemfast]

I guess what gets me the most is when a person wants to take credit for what mother nature and genetics bore, then revert to name calling, threats and arguing when they are exposed.

Warddog, Reread what i originally posted and how you turned it around to personally attack me 1st. You started this whole thing. I thought you were done with the personal attacks on me??? Trying to babble yourself out of a corner ya backed yourself into?

Name calling? If saying you delivered pizzas for a living then so be it, i think thats about all your capable of, obviously with a GPS only. Threats??? Not me Warddog, who else ya misinterpreting what they have said? I will gladly defend ya over a threat anyday cuz this stuff we do here isnt worth threats to one another. And The only thing that has been exposed is YOU, YOU feed garbage, YOU have unhealthy hounds, and YOU babble endlessly and YOU cant read whats in front of ya and understand it.

It also exposes where those folks as to where they stand along side of the E.F. Huttons. Notice AGAIN I never use the word expert but only that "I" listen when these folks speak and those others are like a light switch, I merely turn them off as I can't hear the fart with the wind blowing so hard.

If ya didnt hear the fart why do you keep coming and sniffing me out? I know i didnt hear it but I must be down wind of ya cuz i sure do smell something.

Also for the 3rd time, yes 3rd time Warddog, the dog food advisory website ive asked about since you say all the feeds are the same because they have the same ingredients, ARE WE ALL TO BELIEVE THIS WEBSITE IS USELESS BABBLE??? Tell us all Oh great Warddog how that website is all babble and you "Oh mighty King of Dogfood knowledge" are the one we are all supposed to believe. ......Exposed???? Your the EXPOSED BABBLER WARDDOG, no one else.

I will be training, ........... yes training/handling/running hounds all day tmor, buts i gots me one of dem smarty fones and i will be lookin for da Dogfeed Kings answer. All that time and effort put to waste on a website when the world could of just asked you.

Other than that we are done right???

[warddog]

Well, I have read and reread the post that started this as my reply to it was it made me ROTFLMAO and that my son is what started your rant about me and the dog food. I noticed pretty quickly when the stuff started hitting the fan about the great white trainer YOU went back and edited your original post to ADD handler. NOW, who was exposed? Oh yeah go ahead and say you didn't but the moderators can probably go right back and dig it up. Sorry again but evidently my reading and recollection must be better than yours as this is when YOU went off on your childish tangent about the dog food and then me being the pizza waiter. I will also just respond to your continuous rant about this dog food advisor web site that I have read numerous times and explain that it just furthers EXACTLY what I stated. The words are quite clear to me and probably most of the other folks that read them in that in nearly EVERYONE of them there is some kind of beef, pork, chicken, lamb, turkey or meat MEAL in the first 2 or 3 ingredients. They then go on to contain some kind of grain or vegetable and that is for a reason. I know you are probably not old enough to have much of any science education but man you sure do know how to train. Now that, the real imposter has been exposed and you have because if what I stated was not the truth then why did you go back to the other thread in which YOU started this assault on my intelligence and my career and CHANGE what you had originally posted. BECAUSE YOU GOT CAUGHT trying to act like the great white trainer of beagles. Now SON, I will not respond to your rant any more as I have done you as one of my own kids as I have spanked your little butt and I'm now putting you to bed. Mow take your medicine and quit pouting and go to sleep as I thumped your little butt and I do not want to be charged with child abuse by continuing to do it. Good night and sweet dreams about training all them beagles.

Re: Who has more influence on pups, parents or grand parents

Postby likeemfast » Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:09 am




Casey Harner wrote:
Who passes more traits off to pups??

The guy (handler) who trains and brings out the best in each pup

Last edited by likeemfast on Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:18 am, edited 2 times in total.

likeemfast Posts: 496Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:59 amLocation: Boiling Springs PA

[likeemfast]

WartDog,i made a post at 0809, maybe made couple others, as i always do i reread my posts and yes i did edit it finally at 0818. I think originally i just put guy, maybe trainer, i dunno ..... irrelevant to our scenario. Casey PM'd me shortly after 9am that my response was not a option. Who cares what i put first , it dont mean squat. Your were the only one looking to start trouble. Your attack on me, and misquoting me started at 132pm in the afternoon with guy (handler) already in my post. IRREGARDLESS of anything else. You had no clue of anything otherwise but the fact YOU wanted to start with ME. Pizza delivery musta been slow at that time of day for ya. Sorry to hear that, ya will just have to keep feeding that garbage till tips pick up.

Hers's my other post, no editing.

Dog A (female) jam up rabbit dog Dog B (male) jam up rabbit dog, both grandparents Jam Up Rabbit Dogs, litter out of A and B ...... culls ...... ............ whos to blame?

Heres 2nd part of yours

OMG likeemfast, that one right there had me ROTFLMAO! Man, how I love this entertainment. Dog A worthless cull bred to dog B another worthless cull but in the hands of a beagle "trainer" them and ALL their pups world class rabbit hounds.

So i say jam up rabbit dogs parents and jam up rabbit dog grand parents but a litter of culls are born, whos at fault?

You can read what you typed cant ya? You do read right? or does someone do it for ya and then you forget parts they read to ya? Dog A worthless cull Dog B worthless cull in hands of beagle trainer them and all pups world class rabbit hounds. I DID NOT SAY THAT WARTDOG, you did. Never said worthless culls made into world class hounds by trainer. So obviously yes, you wanted to start with me didnt ya? Get your mods to dig your old butt outta this one, I COULD CARE LESS what you or they think about me. Just quote me correctly if ya have issues with me. Your a has been never been who wants to be but isnt. Im just a dumb rabbit hunter who knows a little something about rabbit hounds. Never claimed otherwise. I know squat about trials, wether its arha, midwest, ukc, akc, nkc, abc, 123...... I just run hounds Wartdog. Your the King of Dog feed. Your grasping at straws with me editing my post, lots of people edit posts, nice try, too bad you came in 5 hours after my post was edited and started misquoting me. Once again just looking to start something with me. A man of your age and you have just been schooled by a young whipper snapper like me, ..... again .

I can copy paste with the best of them. Here is my original post to you on Pride dog feed thread. No attack at all, just conversation. I was just giving opinion, not misquoting and ROTFLMAO LIKE YOU, SO GUYS HERE IT IS ..... the real deal why WARTDOG dont like me.

Warddog, I'm sure with your time in the industry you have seen or heard some very interesting on the job experiences but I have to disagree with your choices of feed even tho you have said different dogs have had different results with the different feeds, just with the dogs in your kennel. They are not all the same obviously and I still say corn as a ingredient in the top 3 of the ingredients is not good for the hound. It's ok for hounds to have some corn, but as a major ingredient it's a cheap filler only.

I think we have all seen the dog food advisor website, which is updated on a regular basis. What are we supposed to take away from his evaluations, compared to your choices of feed?

I've told ya in a PM I feed Diamond naturals Chicken n rice mixed 50/50 with Diamond extreme athlete and there are no complaints here. Yes Diamond makes lots of different brands and have had major issues but since switching over about 4-5 years ago I've never had a issue with their feed. Thru their last recall, I just checked my lot number against the recalled lots and kept feeding it. I've sold about 5 hounds and given away 20-25 over the past 5 years and all I hear is how great my hounds look, especially from the guys I've sold them to as hunting dogs. I hear " what do u feed? I've never seen a hound with such a full shiny coat before." This is a result of Diamond, nothing else, because that is all they get. No additives, no fruits, veggies, no supplements, nothing else, and it's every hound I own. That's not to mention the ones I've bought from other beaglers who have fed some of what you mention and the hound looks plain and simple like hell. Bad coats, not to mention ear mites or some other simply cured illness. 3 months give or take in my kennel and they look real good.

I will out work most, eating Big Macs n fries and they can have their broiled chicken with broccoli and bottled water. I've said it before and will say it again, "ya can't feed a dog desire". But there is a difference between the 1star feeds and 5 star feed for a reason. I have no scientific study to back my beliefs nor have I ever worked in the food industry (but I have eaten a lot of it) these are my beliefs based on real life experiences. JMO

That right there was it, I was very nice tho and had no issues with him or what he believed. ..... Well i did but i kept it to myself.

Nite Wartdog, im runnin hounds in the mornin and im not doin it sitting on a stump, I will be in the thick of it watching them. Thats how ya really see what their doing, IMO, as their Trainer

Its good your done with me again, im sure your tired of getting your handed to ya by a youngin like me.