COTTONTAIL BRED DOGS

[hlane]

ANY THOUGHTS OR OPINIONS ON CROSSING COTTONTAIL BRED DOGS ONTO NORTHERN HARE BRED DOGS ?

[Newt]

What are you trying to accomplish?
I did it about twenty years ago, got lucky and have tried to maintain the dogs that I got from that cross ever since. I crossed a Gay/Pearson Creek Male to a LPH bred bitch, FC Sunkenland Sparky/Tiny's Furnace St Belle.

[hlane]

I just wondered what you would get . the beagles i have now (hare bred ) operate differently than the beagles i had years ago. i here of the spo cottontail dogs being slow
but my old beagles were not slow at all. they were grade dogs so i dont know where they originated from . just wanting to know what could be accomplished crossing them

[mybeagles]

Pretty broad spectrum of SPO dogs available...some are pretty quick. The key would be to watch potential studs to get an idea what your getting. ..... Expect to get some like sire, some like dam, and maybe one in between.

[deerhost]

I've been doing it the last few breedings. Usually Rangerdan or my speedy sport female to north east Spo stuff. I like what I've got. 3 out of the 4 I have at the moment are all bred that way . I have plenty of video of them if you want in box me and I will send you some links.....dh

[adirondackjoe]

i don't think there's any difference between a cottontail dog or a hare dog.

[deerhost]

Joe, I disagree. Go up to canada and what they are breeding is totally deferent dog then what people are breeding maybe say down in Mississippi. Can a hare bred dog run a cottontail? Yes maybe, and can a cottontail dog run a hare? Maybe. But what we are talking about is dogs bred for what they are used for. Up north your looking for snow nose and more foot to stay closer to a faster running hare and down south they breeding for more control to handle a twisting turning cottontail. A dog and the type of breeding is dictated by what the breeder thinks he needs.......dh

[NorWester1]

I agree Deerhost, there is a difference and I like your thought process of infusing hare bred blood with a slower cottontail style or vice versa. I've been doing similar and like the results.....so far.
However it should be noted there are plenty of fellows that have been breeding a hare running style of hound to run cottontail for a number of generations.
Also being fast on hare is just a preference....not a necessity. The hare generally works only as hard as it has to. He'll pull up for slower hounds and in deeper snow the only speed is .....slow

[deerhost]

Norwester I can agree with you. I don't think you need a real fast dog to run a hare it just seams they have been breed up in speed. And yes there are those who have been crossing hare blood to cottontail for a long time. One that comes to mind is Joe Wingates. If you look into some of his hounds many are a mix of both types of hounds. Funny thing, I find things that I both hate and love about both hare bred dogs and cottontail dogs. With out. Ruffling anyone's feathers, I've seen cottontail bred dogs that, barked too much , lacked hunt, could not run on snow and were kennel barkers and I've seen hare dogs that were so rough they could not run a cottontail. I could also name five things about each type dog I like....dh

[NorWester1]

Deerhost wrote,

and I've seen hare dogs that were so rough they could not run a cottontail

Ha,ha,ha.. thats nothin, I've seen them rough enough they could not run a hare
Personally I think the passion for speed is putting a lot of hare bred lines in jeopardy of becoming worthless in all but ideal running conditions.

[Lone Pine Beagles]

I believe there are 4 basic types of beagle out there.
You could even subdivide the 4 into 8 or 9 styles, but i'll stick with 4.

1. Harehound (lines bred to run hare in the north)
2. Southern Cottontail (a lot of Weir Creek and Black Creek blood which derived from the "fishcreeks" of NY)
3. Spo (gun dog, ubgf cottontail dogs bred up from old brace lines)
4. Brace (traditional brace hounds) some CAN circle a rabbit.

I like to cross beagles from category 1 and 2 but with more 1 you may need some 3.
Good all around hounds!

[deerhost]

Lone pine, I don't agree with with your SPO beagle. Here in NY and N.E. PA we run SPO dogs and they are far from UBGF. They are not bred up from brace beagles either. Some are hare bred . SPO is a format not a type of beagle . They differ per region and up here they are pretty quick and no where near UBGF...dh

[Casey Harner]

I believe there are 4 basic types of beagle out there.
You could even subdivide the 4 into 8 or 9 styles, but i'll stick with 4.

1. Harehound (lines bred to run hare in the north)
2. Southern Cottontail (a lot of Weir Creek and Black Creek blood which derived from the "fishcreeks" of NY)
3. Spo (gun dog, ubgf cottontail dogs bred up from old brace lines)
4. Brace (traditional brace hounds) some CAN circle a rabbit.

I like to cross beagles from category 1 and 2 but with more 1 you may need some 3.
Good all around hounds!

Just stick to that Weir Creek & Tadpole line. That line produces rabbit dogs!!!

[Shady Grove Beagles]

Good posts Northwester and Deerhost.
When I moved from New Hampshire to Tennessee 18 years ago I brought three northern bred beagles with me that had never seen a cottontail.The two females [ one out of I.F.C. Maravic's Blue Ninja,the other out of I.F.C. Greenbriar's Birch Haven Merlin ] adapted quite well and excelled on cottontail.The male dog remained rougher than I wanted and was sent back up north to resume his career on hare where he did a good job.
I loved the drive,hunt,foot and stamina of the two females but after running cottontails that first year I could see I wanted a tad closer check work and a tad more patience working the line.
I bred the Blue Ninja female to a linebred D.F.J. male with great sucess.The D.F.J. dogs were originally from New York and run on cottontail and hare.I found they are quite popular in this part of the country.They are not nearly as footy as the females I had but by no means slow.Probably a medium to upper medium runner.Good hunters,close in a check and pretty close on the line.I would say they represent a "true" southern cottontail dog.At least the type that I would like.
When I made that cross I got everything I was looking for [very lucky ].
I've heard of others that have bred conservative cottontail dogs to hard hitting hare hounds without the results they were hoping for.It all depends on the cross you make and the two hounds you are crossing.Are they pre-potent for their traits you are hoping they will pass along? Are you breeding strengths to strengths? Are you compensating for any weakness and what specific traits are you hoping to ad?
Often you will have better success seeing those traits that you were breeding for show up in the next generation [ grandpups ] as opposed to the one you just made.
All that being said yes,I believe you can have success breeding the two types of hounds.Many top hounds come from such breedings.

[deerhost]

Shady Grove, Great post. What you are explaining is what I like in a dog. I mostly run for pleasure and hunt, but I attend a few trials every spring and summer here in the North East. Last year I attended a derby trial in PA and ran little females with Mike Johnson of PA(Hucks RUN beagles). He was running 2-3 young bitches out of his Line which is line bred D.F.J blood breed too Perry piacentinos hare breeding and I was impressed to say the least. Mike had one bitch win another took 2nd and I placed 3rd with a cottontail/hare bred little female. Make a long story short i came in 3rd but was way behind Mikes dogs as they drove the rabbit with good speed but stopped and turned and stayed close on a check, It was a hard scenting day and his dogs had big noses and hunted well. Ive seen a few others of those D.F.J dogs at another owned by Mike but handled by someone else and they ran the same way. ive never seen them on Hare but its obvious they have the foot,nose and hunt to run Hare in Hare country and the check and line control to run a cottontail. Thanks again for the informative post......Andre