~~Stud dog owners not showing stud dog in field~~

[J.C. Blair]

I get tired of all the tire kickers calling me and spending an hour on the phone tellin me how great their dogs are and I say sure if you're serious you can see one of mine run. And you make your own mind. Guess what 1 out of 20 will actually call back or show. And people want something for nothin. Guess what? You wanna run with the big boys ya gotta pay to play.

[Pine Lakes]

You are totally overlooking the point John. The dog was out there for everyone to see. If you didn't go see the dog run it isn't the owner's fault. Like I said, I will show Clyde in the field, but it's an uneasy feeling due to the reasons I stated before. Honestly, what do you expect an 11 yr old dog to show you? He has nothing left to prove to you or anyone else at this point other than what he can reproduce. If you want to breed to a dog that you've seen run, then there are plenty to choose from within a few hours. I know what this dog in my kennel has accomplished and he doesn't have to justify himself to me, you, or anyone else. I didn't bring him down here to "cash in". I spoke with Monk about this dog years ago and he fits into what I'm personally doing in my kennel. If not one person decides to breed to him I won't be offended in the least, but if someone wants to give him a try then they know where he is. If folks who started the Mid-West took on your attitude, you'd still be running cottontail and show bred dogs. How many people in the Mid-West watched Jack Of All Trades run a cottontail? Why are you studding a dog that hasn't finished in the Mid-West or any AKC federation?

Chip I think your taking this personal here and its not meant to be personal to anyone but what I am saying is Moonhaven was not trialed around me and I never heard of him till you mentioned you had him at stud at your house and on top of that I said a dog in their prime and I don't believe a 11 year old dog is in his prime I said a dog 3-6 maybe 7 years old. This is just to see other people view that may have FC or IFC's that are in their prime of why they don't show them.

Also since you wanted to drag my stud dog into it Blackie has proved himself in ALL formats by placing and winning so I don't believe all dogs have to be AKC FC or IFC to be a stud and not that it matters but Blackie was only ran in probably 6-7 AKC lisence trials in his life so a 2nd and a 4th with and winners packs in all but I believe 2 times is pretty good, your welcome to watch him run till the day he dies!!!! I don't care how old he is because he is a Rabbit Dog first and for most and I run him because he is a pleasure to run with so anytime someone wants to see him run can because I own him and he is at STUD and even when he loses some step due to age and may not be the dog he was when younger he will still be showed if someone wants to see him

How does my attitude have anything to do with running show dogs or cotton tail dogs, this about finding out why some choose not to run their FC or IFC dogs in their prime not a 9-11 year old dogdog.

Thanks Guys let get back on topic now!!

Because you are at the very least implying that a dog is not as advertised because you haven't had the priveledge to watch it run. Do you have any idea what type of hounds were here before the influence of hare hounds? Let's take your Blackie dog for instance. A very small percentage of your dogs ancestory ran a cottontail in a Mid-West trial. Imagine if noone had the nerve to breed to a dog because they didn't see it run a cottontail. Heli-Prop's exposure to them was limited, but Hartbarger had him down here for awhile to prepare him. Your dog has been handled in the manner in which we do down here, but alot of these dogs haven't. They are cut loose and hunt hard and deep which puts them at risk of being hit, stolen, or attacked.

I'm not taking it personal because as I stated before I'll show him in the field. However, I do believe you are being narrow minded and creating tension where there need not be any. As far as your dog is concerned, I'm sure he's a fine hound. I was using him as an example of what could be said, and look how you reacted. I don't think it's fair or right to call into judgement a dog that has proven itself in field trials, even if they aren't the trials you attend. If you feel the need to watch a titled dog run before you take a female to him that is certainly your perogative, but I don't think you should get on a public forum and ask why some individuals won't. Just ask that person.

[johns03272008]

If people like me didn't ask questions like this or questions there would be no need for this board, I'm simply asking for people opinions, you have gave yours and I appreciate that. Another reason so many dogs are wishy washy at best is due to people not knowing what they are breeding to and just taking someone's word for it!! Am I a expert at breeding "Heck No" I know little about breeding but I know that I don't want to breed to something just because someone said its fast or because they say it has brains or because it has a big nose!! Ask some of the UBGF guys what speed they consider their dogs, I have seen some say their dogs are 7 or 8 but if I didn't know the bloodline or didn't watch them go and took their word for it, what do you think the pups would come out like, do you think I would be satisfied ?? Just asking a question and looking for opinions and answers and reason behind not running TOP STUD DOGS!! Also like i stated earlier not looking to run a 11 year old dog, dogs in their prime. Thanks to all keep them coming.

[NorthBranch Rummer]

I don't have the answers, but i've enjoyed reading this debate. Both of you guys have made valid points. One thing I do know is that breeding is a gamble and sometimes you just gotta roll the dice.

[Topfuel John]

I have had a few guys called wanting to see chester run but only 1 guy showed up so far,he brought his father and brother and a few dogs they owned.We went and ran and had a good time ,when we were done they bred their female to him.I tell everybody that calls,I run chester regular ,hes not perfect,but I have no problem showing him.I know their is a lot of good dogs in the past I wish I got to see go,so I know how people feel.I do understand when guys buy a stud dog for a large amount of money,they are cautious how they run it or if they run it all.I raised chester as a pup,hes my gundog and trial dog.To me it isn't that big of deal if somebody didn't like him,i know hes proved himself in trials,under the gun,and most of all hes made a believer out of me. I know my kennel will be better cause of him.Ron Conroe made a good point,i know chester hasn't missed a rabbit hunting trip this year!

[jumpNrun]

I like to show my dogs off. So anyone who wants to see Goose or any of his offspring I got him and 6 pups I will show solo or in a pack.

[smokedawg]

Unless a stud dog is very old and not physically able to run anymore, I would want to see him run a rabbit in the field before breeding to him. If he is old and not ran anymore, let me watch some pups off of him run and I will have a good idea if I want to breed to him or not. I just rabbit hunt and pleasure run but I have never bought a pup that I didn't see both parents in the field and I have never bred to a stud dog that I didn't see run in the field. I don't mind paying a 2 or 3 hundred dollar stud fee if the dog runs a rabbit like I like, and reproduces the same. However, I don't see why a man that had a stud dog that was young enough to run a rabbit would mind showing him in the field. I got a couple male gundogs that have been bred a few times and reproduce good. Never been to a trial but I would show them anytime, anywhere in the field. I don't trial, but have seen a few field champions run that I bred to and I have also watched a few field champions that I heard about that when I watched them in the field, were not what I wanted to breed to. Im glad I saw them run cause I would have bred to them on hearsay if I didn't.

[Pine Lakes]

However, I don't see why a man that had a stud dog that was young enough to run a rabbit would mind showing him in the field. I got a couple male gundogs that have been bred a few times and reproduce good. Never been to a trial but I would show them anytime, anywhere in the field.
Did you initially invest thousands in any of these gundogs? Would you feel differently if you had? If the dog is finished and has proven to be a good reproducer then that's an even bigger risk in my mind. If it isn't a proven reproducer then it is a risk that you may not want to take, no matter how poor or impressive the dog may be. At the same time, your "gundogs" may produce better than any IFC could hope to.

I don't trial, but have seen a few field champions run that I bred to and I have also watched a few field champions that I heard about that when I watched them in the field, were not what I wanted to breed to. Im glad I saw them run cause I would have bred to them on hearsay if I didn'tI see things like this said from time to time without example. Was the dog totally incapable of circling a rabbit better than most? Did you watch this dog(s) run more than once? How were they bred? Any offspring on the ground yet? My argument to your ideal is that if a dog is bred well and proven in the trials, then wether or not he runs well on a given day has little to do with how he will reproduce. Obviously you don't want to breed to a lazy, can't smell or circle a rabbit, poorly conformated bucket of dung, but I doubt that it would have a title in front of its name in such a case. I've seen a few FC's in my 20+ years of being around this sport, but I've never seen one that couldn't run a rabbit better than the average dog even if it wasn't my "style" of hound.

My point to all of this is simply that the reputation of a stud and his owner shouldn't be determined by someone questioning their character on a public forum. If they won't show him in the field to you, and that is what you want, then take your female somewhere else. Don't act like there is a hidden agenda cloked in secrecy conspiring to take advantage of those that may breed to their stud. Myself personally, I expect not to regain the money invested in my dog, but that's not why I purchased him to begin with. Good luck to you and a very merry Christmas. How fortunate we are to be able to have this discussion and celabrate this day.

[mn_beagleboy]

Im a generous person that's why I stud my dog and I think that goes to all stud dog owners out there. If they can't show it, they cant show it. A title dog has nothing to hide. There are times I can't even have the time to make the breeding that's y I'm not studding dogs anymore. Please show respect for stud dog owner. You guys are very fortunate to pet these ifc on the head, and lucky to have the dog studded for a small amount. Do your research, watch the offsprings run, stop being a tire kicker, and don't waste the owners time. Pikelake is a very kind person to even offered a dog this caliber to the public. I wish guys close to me buy title dog and share the dog blood with everybody. I fall into the no show stud because I'm losing money to show my stud when I could have stay at work till its close. Plus, I'm not intrested in the small amount stud fee. I stud my dog to help a fellow beagler and I can't even do it anymore. Not because i got ripped off, but because breeding is not always a set time. Let the owner set his own rule. Thanks to all stud dog owners that are willing to share their best to better the breed.

Sao

[BM Orchard]

I would like to thank Eddy Williams, Chris Powers & Patrick O'Connor for letting me breed to their males! I didn't see any of their dogs run, all for different reasons & that was fine with ME. I try to research pedigrees, talk to people that I feel I can trust about the dogs & cross my fingers! I will say to each his own! My son usually always rides with me & anytime alone with him is welcomed. Thanks again to these guys & all who allow the public the opportunity to use their dog if they wish! MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL.

[smokedawg]

No, I don't have thousands invested in a stud dog. I like to rabbit hunt and pleasure run year round. I live in Southeastern Louisiana. Within a 2 hour drive of me their are a lot of good stud dogs around. So far I have never had a owner that wouldn't show me his stud dog in the field. Most of them have several running dogs off of their stud that you can see run also. Most of the owners have at least a big running pen that they will put the stud dog in and you can watch him run for a while. The stud dogs that I saw run that I didn't breed to circled a rabbit just fine. I didn't breed to them because I didn't think their style matched up with the bitch I planned on breeding. Just cause I don't trial don't mean I aint selective and know what I want. I like to see the dog run and possibly put him down with my female and see how their running styles compare. I respect a man's investment just fine. I think it works both ways. It is standard procedure down here to see the stud dog run and the stud owner many times wanted to see my bitch run before he would let his dog breed her. Titles are good but I would rather breed to a jam up dog that I had seen run and reproduce without a title than to a stud that was a FC that I never saw go. If the dog is to old to run anymore though, I understand and can see no good come from me watching a 12 year old dog run. In that case, just show me some of his offspring and it's all good.

[smokedawg]

If I did have that much invested in a big time stud dog though and had to put up with all the phone calls, aggravation, and tire kickers I probably would feel different. Im told that having a dog at stud to the public and dealing with all that comes with it is a full time aggravating job. Most of the owners I know wont even do it. They will send the dog off to a guy to handle that full time. There is definitely 2 sides to this discussion and I don't have anything against a guy that don't wont to show a high dollar dog in the winter woods. I just more than likely would not breed to the stud, but would have no hard feelings.

[LightningBeagles]

First off great post. Its definitely an eye opener for some. So what is an owner of a stud trying to do. For many its the passing on of a line of beagle., At least I thought that's what were doing here. Some make a back yard beagle a champion and next thing you know its up on the boards for stud. I myself research ped., talk to many different individuals. Try to talk to ones that really have an understanding of bloodlines, trialing, hunting, scenting conditions, so. Not some of these narrow minded beaglers that think that a certain dog is perfect day in and day out.

I myself have no problem running any of my dogs anytime. Sure their are consequences for letting people see your dog run. Sure he may not have a great day. Due to rabbits, climate, conditions etc. I myself have jumped to conclusions at times about my dogs to be proven wrong. No dog is perfect. I have a kennel that has In my belief dogs that have won and can compete about on any level in the country. But also , theirs many out there just like em'. I have a few grands in my kennel that have tons to offer, but haven't even been bred yet.

Some of you have said some wise points. Like all the tire kickers, and phone calls. I love talking beagles almost as much as running them. But with working tons of hours and a family all the rest takes up time.

When I go to a trial, its when I believe that certain dog has the abilities to win that day if all goes as planned. I have confidence in my hounds. So do I in my current Studs. In my eyes A stud is identified first by having a great proven background, second, his trial/hunting performance record, and who he ran against, third, the off spring that the stud has produced. Sure it can be a gamble, and sure the way a hound runs on one certain day is not how he may do the majority of the time or if that trait will be passed on. There's a lot to picking a stud, a lot of research and miles in the truck going to trials to see what you want.

I would just give advice to try to see the dog run if possible, understand with an open mind that age, conditions and so on are important. Do some home work before your bitch comes in, don't just wait till the week of breeding to make that decision.
Remember it will all start with good bloodlines and the Dam plays a very big part too, but also, the great Secretariat bred hundreds of well bred mares, to only produce I think one winner of a triple crown race. food for thought.
And yes some people are afraid of showing their hound due to many reasons, maybe he's not like described, or the insurance factor, remember your only paying a small fee to have what may have taken many thousands to make.

Look a hounds career, not just one day. Good luck in finding your stud.

[Shady Grove Beagles]

Good post Casey Harner!
It's always a good idea to see the prospective parents of a cross go if possible.A lot of times it's not possible.As Casy mentioned, seeing their off-spring go is more benificial.
Some folks ship a bitch half way across the country to a well known stud and can't watch him run.Some studs are still being used but are past their good running days [10-12 year olds ].Sometimes I'm sure it's a case of the stud not having gotten out much and the owner is concerned that he might not perform as well as he has in the past.Other times it may just come down to time constraints where the owner can't spend his only day- off running with guys from out of town for several hours who may or may not ever breed to his dog.
Twenty years ago I spent three days at the home of a guy in Mississippi that had a nationaly known coon hound stud dog.His phone rang constantly throughout dinner time and the evening and a lot during the day too. People that just wanted to "talk" about his stud or come watch him go.He said that most all were just"tire kickers" and it got to be a real pain.
Years ago I had a Champion hound and he was getting some use as a stud.Some guys called me and asked if I would show him in the woods.I said sure and we set up a hunt.I of course wanted to show them my dog in his best possible light so took them to my "honey hole" that was full of game.My hound put on a good show and did everything you would want when you're showing him.Long story short.Those guys "poached" that spot on me and came back time after time until they wiped it out.Last time I took anybody out on my grounds!
Not offering excuses,just some reasons.
Before I consider breeding to a dog I feel you should do your homework before hand and have a pretty good idea of what that dog is reproducing being MUCH MORE important then how he ran the day you watched him.Check out his off-spring and talk with some folks that have them.Check out his pedigree and see if the hounds behind him are the type of dogs that you want to have in your kennel.Were they good producers of the hounds you like? Are the stud's littermate brothers and sisters hounds of quality? Is he throwing big pups or little pups? Are his off- spring up on legs and athleticaly built or short and squat,chunky built? How does this line that the stud comes from perform? Medium speed ,head down and close or footy,hard hittin run to catch? Do they come from a family of dogs that were primarily hunted on hare or cottontail? Are you concerned with the type of mouth you're apt to get? Has anybody already made a cross onto this stud with a female bred similar to yours? How are those pups?
If you can research these questions before hand from some reliable sources you should already have a pretty good idea of what you're trying to do even if you can't get to see him run.

[Newt]

I guess like has been stated it is up to the stud dog owner if he wants to run the dog or not and I'm sure it can get time consuming to run the dog for everyone that wants to see him go, but on the other hand if you own a stud dog that is time consuming and especially if you own one that is worth breeding to!! I my opinion if you don't have time to show a dog in its prime in the field why is the dog for stud??

If you are aware of the type dogs, UBGF, LPH, MidWest, LP, or Progressive Pack, that the Stud has competed and earned his Champion status, why would you need to see him perform in the field? He has proven that he could win in the particular format.