load usage

[gwyoung]

S.R. patch, We have discussed the 410 bore many times as well, I have shot many of them and currently own three. In my opinion they are much better suited gauges for hunting and the 410 should be left at home. This is from a guy who has killed hundreds of woodcock, probably more rabbits than the guys who are about to sing it's praises, a few grouse and 6 spring Gobblers with one, it is a stunt gun and should be left at home. I Do not consider Chuck Hawks an authority , he has written on every cartridge and gauge ever designed, thousands of them, but he is pretty much right on about the 410. Most people use 410's as they believe it demonstrates to others their expertise with a shotgun and they also like to give off the impression that it doesn't matter if they kill anything or not. But the first time someone isn't looking they will shoot at a rabbit 50 yards with it! Now, some do only take very close or close sitting shots with the 410 and they do o.k. but I don't see the point of this exercise. Of course some who really don't know the limitations of the gun will talk about bagging rabbits on a regular basis at 40 to 50 yards. In reality it is a 20 to 25 yard gun on rabbits and it leads to a lot of cripples. I think I have been honest enough about this poor gauge to bring the experts out who always bag their game with the 410 and they don't know what a cripple is. I can do quite well with one on skeet and the boys that couldn't hit 5 crossing clay targets in a row with one are about to tell me all about it!

[Casey Harner]

Shot a rabbit at 40-45 yards with a Remington 20 guage she'll. 6# shot.

[gwyoung]

Casey, did the rabbit know it? Just joking . The average 20 gauge load with a number 6 pellet will have about 2.0 foot pounds of pellet energy at 40 yards. A single pellet could enter the brain case and kill the rabbit much farther than your range of 40-45 yards. But it is not feasible to count on this fluke when shooting game. also a single pellet could traverse both lungs or enter the heart and kill the rabbit at greater distances than 45 yards but he will have time to get to a hole. actually if you were to pattern most full choke twenty gauges at 40 yards you will find that most of the time a rabbit could not pass through the pattern without suffering multiple hits, so will a twenty gauge be effective at 40 yards on rabbits, this is stretching it a bit under field conditions because on a running rabbit at 40 yards he will very seldom be centered in the pattern, a skilled shotgunner will kill most at this distance but a fair number of misses and cripples will also result. I am sure I along with others have killed rabbits beyond 40 yards with 20 gauge #6's but I consider this on the very outside of it's range on rabbits, at this distance, the 20 gauge can do it. But I prefer them to be a little closer with the twenty as I am sure all others would as well.

[ericwaddle3]

I've killed 30 or so squirrels every year since I was about 15, that's 13 years. I'm not bragging, far from it, as I know several people have hunted much longer and kill several more a year. That being said, EVERY squirrel I've every shot has been with a Deluxe Topper Model 188 .410. I've never had trouble knocking the lil tree rats outs, all about shot placement, ability, and knowing your weapon.

[gwyoung]

Ericwaddle3, At twenty to twenty five yards a good shotgunner can get by with a 410, if he waits until everything is just right. ( It is still a stunt gun ) This is what I am sure you meant about shot placement, ability, and knowing your weapon. I too am a squirrel hunter, I don't go to Deer camp like most folks I have a squirrel camp. For thirty years several of my friends from Penn., Virginia, and Ohio join me at squirrel camp. I generally kill between 2 and 3 hundred every year. I have only killed 108 this year due to switching jobs. I use a .22 or a 17 mach 2 and head shots for squirrels, ( If you hit him anywhere but the head you become the camp cook) But early on I usually had a guest or two that used a shotgun, shotguns have not been allowed at camp for about twenty years now. had one ole guy that used a 410 two years in a row, killed about every squirrel he shot at, he shot every one of them up close as is necessary for the 410. I happened upon him sitting under a big oak on my way back to camp one evening and he was watching two squirrels in the top of a big oak, he wouldn't shoot at them because they were to high in the tree, he was waiting on them to come down a little closer. Eric, I am sure you have shot at some squirrels you didn't get in your lifetime, With a little more gun this number would be lower , I am sure.

[Casey Harner]

Casey, did the rabbit know it? Just joking . The average 20 gauge load with a number 6 pellet will have about 2.0 foot pounds of pellet energy at 40 yards. A single pellet could enter the brain case and kill the rabbit much farther than your range of 40-45 yards. But it is not feasible to count on this fluke when shooting game. also a single pellet could traverse both lungs or enter the heart and kill the rabbit at greater distances than 45 yards but he will have time to get to a hole. actually if you were to pattern most full choke twenty gauges at 40 yards you will find that most of the time a rabbit could not pass through the pattern without suffering multiple hits, so will a twenty gauge be effective at 40 yards on rabbits, this is stretching it a bit under field conditions because on a running rabbit at 40 yards he will very seldom be centered in the pattern, a skilled shotgunner will kill most at this distance but a fair number of misses and cripples will also result. I am sure I along with others have killed rabbits beyond 40 yards with 20 gauge #6's but I consider this on the very outside of it's range on rabbits, at this distance, the 20 gauge can do it. But I prefer them to be a little closer with the twenty as I am sure all others would as well.

My buddy missed him and he ran down a shooting lane and went back in the thicket. I was standing there waiting for him to come out. I saw him come out, one shot spooked him and he started to go back in the thicket. The next shot hit him and he fell over. When I skinned him later that day, I only found two pellets around the heart area. One was down underneath the skin and inside the body, the other was just attached the skin.

[gwyoung]

Casey, Keep in mind it required two shots at that distance to bag that bunny, and then it was pure chance that the pellets landed where they did. Easy to cripple them and have them get in a hole under those circumstances. actually the first shot could have placed both pellets in the rabbit as could have the second or both could have put one each in it. Just because he fell at the second shot doesn't mean he was hit by the second, doesn't mean he wasn't either! That bunny could just as easily had two pellets in him somewhere else , like one in the foot and one in the intestines , that makes it a lost crippled rabbit 99% of the time around here. Not a shot that I am willing to take, but when I was younger I am sure that I have. That distance with the twenty will lead to more lost cripples than recovered rabbits, I am sure you can see that. That is why most prefer that their rabbits be under 40 yards with the 20 gauge.

[bigjohn]

IMO the 410 is an experts gun.I see so many folks put them in the hands of youngsters only to end up with kids not taking many rabbits with it.
As far as range.I've lazered ranges that people have stepped off when patterning their shotguns.I'm here to tell you that 99% of thosed paced off 40 yards end up being 28 yards.At an actual 40 yards,very few choke/shell combinations used for rabbit hunting don't even come close to being 100%.

[gwyoung]

bigjon, You are correct about the 40 yard shots. most are about thirty. If you were to laser range forty yards and then pattern a 12 gauge with a standard load of #6's ( 1-1/4 oz. ) you will find that the pattern is more than sufficient to bag bunnies, the same can be said for the twenty gauge with it's heavier loads. Both choked either Modified or full. The biggest factors at this distance is that the bunny wont normally be centered in the pattern and I will bet you that two out of three shotguns the boys are packing will not print the center of the pattern at point of aim at this distance. There is a heck of a lot of shotguns shooting high, low, left, or right of the point of aim , most are packing one but they don't know it! Your remark about the 410 being an expert's gun is correct. if you will notice I said this very thing in an earlier post when I said some that pack them want to be known for their expertise with a shotgun, this expertise is more imagined than real on their part but they want to give the impression of being an expert! Now, for the real experts , it is still a stunt gun no, real expert will tell you different. I could take it out a kill 20 rabbits in a row with it as could a lot of others this does not prove it is a rabbit gun no more than killing 20 deer in a row with a .22 LR ( which can be done) proves it is a deer gun. I don't allow folks to carry stunt guns when hunting with me, I insist they use hunting guns , we owe it to the game.

[Shady Grove Beagles]

Hey S.R.Patch
The hunting trip was great as always as I get to hunt with long time hunting buddies.We've been hunting together for more than 30 years and they have some dogs that I've raised so it's always great to see how they've turned out.
This year I went up a couple of weeks earlier than I usually do and it actually was too warm for my liking.Had some frosts in Maine but by noon it was in the 60's a couple of days.
We found,ran and gunned lots of hare in Maine.In Vermont we had exceptionally warm days and one day with very high wind which made it difficult to jump and then hear the dogs when running.We ran everyday in Vt. but I wouldn't say the hare population was great.Had to hunt hard to get a hare up in New Hampshire but moose season opened that day and kept us out of some of our better spots.Had the best run on that hare as they pounded him for 2 hours and 20 minutes.Could have shot him several times but was enjoying the run too much!!!! LOL.
Everybody was using 20 ga. guns and a lot of the shots up there in Maine's cover are in the 10-15 yard range.

[warddog]

Interesting conversation and I can say that I started off as a kid using the ole single shot 410 with #6 or 7 1/2 shot shells. I killed rabbits with it as I was taught to hunt to get a good shot on the rabbit being circled NOT one flying by 100 MPH and taking a wiz bang shot! From there I went to a 16 and 20 gauge shotguns and used whatever shells or loads us poor ole folks could afford to buy so as to put food on the table. I've killed birds and cottontail with about any and every shot there is and even some that I bought reloaded having no idea of what they actually were. For years I have came full circle, back to the 410 BUT even one step further in the 410/45 hand gun. I'm not going to try to portray myself as an expert as I certainly am not, neither am I a novice as I have bagged my fair share of game over my 50+ years behind hounds. I guess this entire conversation comes down to what an individual is out there for as I have hunted for food for the table and now it's for the sport of it only. NOW, believe me or not but I could care less if I kill a rabbit in front of the dogs or not. FACTS are both my cousin and I have taken about one or two per year over the past five years or so as we don't have any need to fill the freezer with them now days nor does it give us any sense of being the GREAT hunter to pile them up on the tailgate as we grew out of that as kids long ago. So, I now use the cheap 410 stunt hand gun with #6 shot and ONLY shoot at a target that I know I can kill cleanly. I'll guarantee you I will not be shooting at one 50 yards flying by like a supersonic jet. If I can't get myself into a position for a very good shot then the dogs will have to bring the rabbit around again until I do as I'm not out there for the kill but rather the HUNT. By the way the 410 is a one shot tool as is the ole percussion cap, side hammer muzzle loader and the crossbow, I use deer hunting, meaning one shot, better make it count.

[rabbit chaser]

That's what I use also #5 410 in 3in seem to work good for me

where in the heck are you guys finding #5 .410 loads ? I've never even seen them but would like to try a box if I could find them.

[S.R.Patch]

Hey S.R.Patch
The hunting trip was great as always as I get to hunt with long time hunting buddies.We've been hunting together for more than 30 years and they have some dogs that I've raised so it's always great to see how they've turned out.
This year I went up a couple of weeks earlier than I usually do and it actually was too warm for my liking.Had some frosts in Maine but by noon it was in the 60's a couple of days.
We found,ran and gunned lots of hare in Maine.In Vermont we had exceptionally warm days and one day with very high wind which made it difficult to jump and then hear the dogs when running.We ran everyday in Vt. but I wouldn't say the hare population was great.Had to hunt hard to get a hare up in New Hampshire but moose season opened that day and kept us out of some of our better spots.Had the best run on that hare as they pounded him for 2 hours and 20 minutes.Could have shot him several times but was enjoying the run too much!!!! LOL.
Everybody was using 20 ga. guns and a lot of the shots up there in Maine's cover are in the 10-15 yard range.

Sounds like a good trip and great times!
Those long runs are what we live for and seldom often enough. We had a hare in N.Wis. yrs ago that was one of our best, ran him all morning on the last day and put the hounds up at 2pm to head home, never got that hare and seen him numerous times but he never used the same trail when coming back on his circuit, the unevenness of the swamp let him slip through every time. We tried to kill him, but never succeeding was the best thing that could have happened. We talked about that chase all the way home and that was a 10 hr. ride.
Hope to hear more about your trip and some pictures if you don't mind to share your good time with us. We been getting frost the last week and a few of the hounds have been escaping from the old kennels, they know it's time, Autumn is in the air.
I was sick last year and hope to hunt more this year. It's hard to go far and traveling by yourself worries my wife.
Thanks again for the come back.

[S.R.Patch]

That's what I use also #5 410 in 3in seem to work good for me

where in the heck are you guys finding #5 .410 loads ? I've never even seen them but would like to try a box if I could find them.

might try this one...
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/brow ... c=97&s=929

[Casey Harner]

Casey, Keep in mind it required two shots at that distance to bag that bunny, and then it was pure chance that the pellets landed where they did. Easy to cripple them and have them get in a hole under those circumstances. actually the first shot could have placed both pellets in the rabbit as could have the second or both could have put one each in it. Just because he fell at the second shot doesn't mean he was hit by the second, doesn't mean he wasn't either! That bunny could just as easily had two pellets in him somewhere else , like one in the foot and one in the intestines , that makes it a lost crippled rabbit 99% of the time around here. Not a shot that I am willing to take, but when I was younger I am sure that I have. That distance with the twenty will lead to more lost cripples than recovered rabbits, I am sure you can see that. That is why most prefer that their rabbits be under 40 yards with the 20 gauge.

Next time I will ask the rabbit to come closer. Hopefully they comply. I am pretty confident, in my gun and load of choice.