Show Beagles qualify in Hunt Test!!

[thornie]

Cindy,
Do a search for Briarhill Beagles and you will find frolicism fella on it.

[Boomer]

JUST CONSIDER THIS , IF THE BREED STANDARD IS SUPOST TO BE CONDUSIVE TO WHAT IT TAKES FOR A DOG TO RUN ALL DAY AND HOLD UP,RUN AT OLD AGES ,ETC.......... THEN WHY IS IT THAT SOME OF THE MOST HIGH ENDUANCE HOUNDS IN THE WORLD ,THE AKC LP ON HARE DOGS COULD NEVER PLACE IN A "PRETTY SHOW " AS I CALL THEM
ILL BET U COULD NOT GET ANY OF THESE WEST MINSTER TYPES TO RUN ALL DAY WITH THOSE SO CALLED UGLY ,POOR CONFIRMATION,NOT SUPOST TO BE ABLE TO HOLD UP HARE DOGS LOLOLOL

You're assuming that the "AKC LP ON HARE DOGS" are superior in endurance to the "pretty show" dogs as you call them. How do you know this to be true? How many trialers are out there breeding and training to get the best hare dogs? How many of those are using "pretty show" dogs to do it? How can you fairly compare them? It's like saying Russian genes make bad football players because there are no Russians in the NFL. We have a good idea what body types work for football. Could we get football players with Russian genes? Of course. Can you take someone out of Russia, throw them onto a football field, and expect them to just perform? No. But they could learn to play, and their kids growing up being groomed to play sure could.

And the standard is a guide, not an absolute law. The best conformational hound isn't necessarily going to be the best hunting dog, just as the ugliest hunting dog isn't going to be the worst hunting dog. Nobody is saying that. And there's more to field performance than just conformation - scenting ability, fitness, lung capacity, heart, etc, and, of course, training.

A bad bite is a bad bite - it's not going to keep a dog from being a tremendous rabbit dog, but it's a problem with the standard and in the breed ring. Is it important to breed dogs with proper bites, or beagles without other such defects? Many will say that it is. Is that so wrong?

[Honey Pot Hounds]

Great post Boomer!!!

[DDWBeagles]

Browse through the Better Beagling board (LP Hare) and read the many threads about "what's happened to the hunt and abilities to make a true snow hound." Never is there a mention of show stock. To use your (GUEST) own argument against you, looks like the LP Hare breeders are (in the poster's opinions) screwing up the breed without any outside influence from show lines. Similar threads can be found on the SPO board as well.
Boomer said it well, when he said he has seen duds on both sides. Me too.
I agree with Lane-Lefgren when he/she talks about the AKC standard, BUT I also know that breeders watch the trends more so than the standard itself. When browsing through old photos of ring winners decades ago, it quite obvious that the Beagle has changed a bit. This is due to who and what "types" are winning at the shows. If your dog fits the AKC standard to a "T," yet doesn't model the current trend, then you may very well leave the ring without points or a win. In fact, I would almost bet that dog would loose. I don't want to start a thread about judges, as that is a whole other ball of wax.
However, I am thankful that the show breeders are migrating to these boards. Their input and experience can help all of us. It's been a good topic and actually somewhat civil. We must be getting better.

[Bob Huffman]

I encourage everyone to cross in show lines in their hunting stock. Then after years of expense and effort breeding out the bad and linebreeding the good, when you get all done let me know and I will cross them into my dogs. It is not hard to cross a show dog onto a hunting type and get good dogs with looks and ability. What is hard is to get them to breed true. After the first cross, the traits you see that were the result of overdominance or what is more commonly known as hybrid vigor, will segregate out into many weird combinations and to get your new type to breed true, you will have to inbreed and linebreed and that takes a lot of time and effort and expense. It has been done and can be done again but it ain't as easy as you think to get them to breed true and call them a new type. Better to cross in one shot and then backcross on your original stock and try to introduce a few new traits at a time. Some hunting traits such as nose have to constantly be bred for or selected for or you will lose it quick. I would be willing to give 50 bucks to anyone that can show me a show dog with a nose like my stud dog. Very few hunting dogs even have one like it. I would be in deep doodoo if I crossed a show dog in as nose is hard enough to keep using dogs with great noses. Mother Nature is always trying to breed back toward the mutt and if you aren't careful, you will lose some of the good traits quickly and you will have a heck of a time getting them back. The truth is that all show dogs come from hunting stock back far enough and some retain some of those genes. Breed the right show dog to the right show dog and some of the hunt comes out but it won't breed true in most cases. The russian football player comparison is not accurate as their is not the variation in humans as there is in the canine species. Would you attempt to run rabbits with a St Bernard or Rotweiller?? There is nothing new under the sun. I will say that there is nothing wrong with a shot or 2 of show dog now and then to keep them pretty. Some hunting strians have such an abundance of hunting triats that they can absorb an outcross of mediocre ability and still breed fairly true. Those strains are rare but they are out there. You would naturally want to use a show dog with as much rabbit tracking ability as you can find. That is what I did and I think I made it work but it can also screw things up if you don't know what you are doing. It only took me 6 generations to get it straightened out again but I did it. I think I retained the looks and the ability. At this point they are starting to lose the show dog looks as I have to keep outcrossing here and there to other unting stock. Its a tough old world ain't it!!!!

[Honey Pot Hounds]

Yes Bob, it sure is a "tough old world"--especially in Asia right now Very depressing.

In regards to breeding I was reading an excellent book titled "The Joy of Breeding Your Own ShowDog"--now hang on it's relavent to hunters too and there are about four chapters related to pedigrees, genetics, in breeding, outcrossing, line breeding, etc.etc. It was as brain crunching as trigonomitry (which I failed ) and I woke up with my first migraine that night Now I know to read this book slowly, one chapter at a time. But Bob sure is right about the expense and time....I bet it could take a lifetime or several to breed a choice new type that was consistantly true.

[S.R.Patch]

Four chapters...wow!!
Have a go at this one, http://www.shorthair.com/peasnpups.html
Maintaining qualities and making improvements is all relative when breeding hunting dogs...
Remember, take small bites and chew well...lol
May help you understand why some guard their lines so closely ...Patch

[Boomer]

I would be willing to give 50 bucks to anyone that can show me a show dog with a nose like my stud dog. Very few hunting dogs even have one like it.

If "very few hunting dogs even have one like it," then he must have an exceptional nose. Why does a "show dog" necessarily have to be held to an exceptional standard? Do you only breed your stud dog to bitches who have a nose as good as his, or do you sacrifice that somewhat for bitches who bring other good qualities to the table?

There are at least several hundred active show beagles in the US. Count the retirees, dogs overseas, and dogs from show lines who aren't "show quality," and you've got tens of thousands of "show beagles" you'd probably be up against. I guess with those kinds of numbers, $50 is all I'd have the guts to offer, too.

FWIW, I do have a dog from exclusively show lines top-and-bottom (never went to the show ring - "gay tailed") with a tremendous nose. If I had the time for it, I'd get involved in search and rescue with him. He's generally too patient, dilligent, and careful to be what I would consider a good rabbit dog, but his scenting ability is tremendous.

The russian football player comparison is not accurate as their is not the variation in humans as there is in the canine species. Would you attempt to run rabbits with a St Bernard or Rotweiller?

We're not talking about different dog breeds - we're talking about purebred beagles. Within humans, there are substantial genetic variations from Native Americans to Europeans to Asians to Africans, etc...variations which are probably even more distinct than the differences between show beagles and field beagles.

[gamekeeper]

Bob for the most part I agree with you ,however in all the lines of spo breeding I have worked with I find a high instance of backtracking,barking dog and to much mouth in every way.Being a tinker I am making a show cross no doubt it is a shot in the dark but will be interesting.Actually they are being wholped as I type.I'll have to send you one we can call it BUSH.

[Incahoots]

Personally, if you have to breed out it's nose to make it "look good" you are ruining the breed. The opposite is true also. Why is it AKC's programs actually appear to ruin the breed then maintain it? A hound should be both not one or the other. If it looks like a champ but can't run a rabbit it should be disqulified. If it runs a rabbit but looks like a mutant same for it. You can have both but that actually takes more work then breeding for just one extreme.

[DDWBeagles]

Incahoots, I like your idea, but hasn't there always been separate titles for ring and field? Even in old reports, they have been titled in one or the other....or dual champion in both, but at least it shows the existence of the two separate arenas. Introducing the hunt test for show lines is a good start. It may not mean that dog can circle a rabbit to the gun, but it does show "instinct" is there.

[TC]

.

There should not and cannot be a division in the breed if it is to Survive Where would the Beagle Be today if all these folks just gave up hunting and working Their Dogs (think about it)

From Field to Show and Show to Field Thats the way it should be

As you can see we have a lONG way to go, trying to bring both sides together and some will never change thier Minds!!! there has been Progress!!! So thats Something at least! Some Of the Field Guys are actually Talking to us Again LOL This division is not just on the Huntin dog side its also on the Show side!!!!
We will Just keep going and doing what we do with our Hounds We enjoy both sides and Who Knows maybe if we are lucky and we Work hard and research long enough and think things through hard enough Maybe just Maybe Some day we will get where we want to be!!!!!


DDW

Introducing the hunt test for show lines is a good start. It may not mean that dog can circle a rabbit to the gun, but it does show "instinct" is there.

It also Shows That The interest in the Field Work is there also to me. So let em Enjoy themselves this test wont be enough for most of them as we all know that SOUND will Get ya Hooked!!!!!!

[Bob Huffman]

hey Boomer Whats with the remark about having guts to offer 50 bucks?? Is that some kind of slam or something? Tell me more about the great nose on your dog!!! Your rusian football player is not a good cpmparison as humans are much more alike than dogs. Humans haven't been selectivaly bred for extreme traits the way dogs have. I would also argue that show beagles and hunting bred beagles are not the same breed. Looking alike doesn't make them have the same gene pool. Give us an example of your show dogs tremendous nose. Can he track a rabbit in 0 weather over ice. Can he run one down a RR bed in 90 degree heat in the middle of the day under extreme drought conditions? Just becaise he can smell you 100 yaqrds away or smell his food bowl at 100 feet doesn't mean a thing. I say you have never seen a Beagle with a good nose. If my 50 bucks don't suit you then you tell me how much money I should offer. You are messing with the big dogs now and when I tell you something about a beagle it is not wishful thinking or pretending to know something about it. If your show dog can't even run a rabbit I am wanting to know how you know he has a TREMENDOUS NOSE!!! Having a nose good enough to smell something is much differant than having a nose able to track and run the rabbit under extreme conditions. This is not a knock on show dogs. Yes I breed my stud to bitches with less nose than he because few have one like him. Recessive genes are involved and by breeding a daughter or grandaughter back to him, I can produce his nose again and build up the trait in the line by gene stacking. More than one gene is involved and its inheritance is one of degrees rather than simple recessive or dominant. In other words the more genes for the trait, the stronger the trait. You are correct when you say he has an exceptional nose for a beagle. He is linebred on a famous ancestor who many expert houndsmen say had the best nose of any beagle they ever saw. If you ain't careful I will sic Paul Short on you who wrote the book an Beagle scenting ability in cottontail dogs. he would be willing to bet a lot more than 50 bucks but I am a poor man myself and not much of a gambler but I do have guts!!!

[Bob Huffman]

If all these show dogs you talk about are good hunters boomer, then get them in the field trials and see how they do. Talk is cheap. I am happy for any show dog that can hunt. One reason they might hunt is they are dogs and dogs normally like to hunt and sniff etc. I have had bird dogs and coon hounds that could run a rabbit. That doesn't make them rabbits dogs that are worth feeding. Any dog can track a rabbit for while. 2 years ago I had a bitch run one around my house in the standing soybeans for 12 HOURS. Same rabbit round and round and round she goes from noon til midnight. When I talk about rabbit dogs this is what I mean. Gamekeeper why in the world would you cross in show dog to stop the mouthiness?? The first croos may be OK but in the second and third you are in for some nasty surprises. On the other hand it never hurts to try anything if you are prepared to evaluate and except the outcome. I am aware that at anytime it could be the cross that produces the dog who produces looks and ability. Sounds to me that the show breeders can breed for looks and not ability and then think its odd that someone says there dogs aren't hunting stock nor could they compete with hunting bred lines. I think I understand why they breed show dogs and not working dogs. You have to know something about it to do it. I thought I was pretty civil when claims of adding hunting ability by show dogs was made. To be 100% clear, they will add looks and if you are lucky lucky, they won't screw up your line. I am sure that somewhere out there is a show dog that can hunt very well and has a good nose. Where is it????? Are we going to reproduce it???? Show dogs came from hunting dogs originally and any ability they have was because if that. They are in the show dog gene pool but the amount of hunting genes in the deam is low low low. This is the bottom line no matter how much anyone wants it to be something else.

[Bob Huffman]

Here is a some of my breeding and I think I have the looks and head shape down to a science. This dog is for sale cheap as my wife says he keeps staring at her and it is giving her the creeps!!! I tell her its all in her imagination but she insists the dog has something against her. I think she is nuts!! What d you think????><><http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/oldbluehen/dog.jpg