Show Beagles qualify in Hunt Test!!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 3:04 pm

JUST CONSIDER THIS , IF THE BREED STANDARD IS SUPOST TO BE CONDUSIVE TO WHAT IT TAKES FOR A DOG TO RUN ALL DAY AND HOLD UP,RUN AT OLD AGES ,ETC.......... THEN WHY IS IT THAT SOME OF THE MOST HIGH ENDUANCE HOUNDS IN THE WORLD ,THE AKC LP ON HARE DOGS COULD NEVER PLACE IN A "PRETTY SHOW " AS I CALL THEM

ILL BET U COULD NOT GET ANY OF THESE WEST MINSTER TYPES TO RUN ALL DAY WITH THOSE SO CALLED UGLY ,POOR CONFIRMATION,NOT SUPOST TO BE ABLE TO HOLD UP HARE DOGS LOLOLOL

COME ON LETS HERE YOUR EXPLANATION ?
MY OPINON GOOD CONFIRMATION IS NECESARRY BUT NOT TO THE EXTREMES SOME OF U SHOW PEOPLE SAY IT DOES ,JUST LOOK AT THE WINNERS AT THIS YEARS AKC NATIONALS THEY COULS NEVER BEAT A SHOW HOUND ON THE BENCH BUT THEN AGAIN MOST OF THESE SHOW ONLY DOGS COULD NEVER HOLD UP RUNNING WITH THEM

BOTTOM LINE, HUNT COMES FIRST .I MEAN COME ON GUYS IS THAT NOT THE REAL TRUE PURPOSE OF BEAGLES ,TO HUNT ???

I AGREE WITH SOME OF THE OTHERS THIS HUNT TEST SOUNDS KIMD OF FLIMSY ,I MEAN SHOULDNY U HAVE TO HUNT FOR ATLEAST AN HOUR OR 2 AND CIRCLE RABITS NOT JUST TRACK ONE TO A BUSH .......

Incahoots · Post by **Incahoots** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 3:55 pm

Incahoots, as much as you may complain about "pretty" that sure is one good looking hound on your avatar.

Sorry if I sound negative my point is the goal should be imo a great looking dog that can run a rabbit all week. Why destroy one trait to benifit another?

That's pup in avatar is White River Pure Chaos at 6 mo old. Another excellent dog from Mitch Gould and Jake Teter. He should have very good conformation and do very well in hunts and that's being humble. That is their goal tho great conformation with hunt that can compete with the best. Here in this pic you can see he's been practicing since birth! I have another WR (Kole) also and he's very well built, great looks, and is excellent in the field.

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 8:49 pm

To answer GUEST question why a large pack hound would not do well in a pretty show,at the shows they put alot of importance on type .which would be head and expression,and showy temperment none of which contributes to a working dog however one can benefit a working dog by using the standard where it applies to working hounds soundness ,angulation and shoulder layback.I see a lot of beagles that coulg use better feet,nice tight cat like feet with thick pads make aq hounds endurance better.Another place many breeders are slipping is with bites ,I see so many beagles with bad bites and it is so herditary what a shame.Many of the working dos would look more like their show cousins with better conditioning.diet.
Presently I have a little bitch by Fd Ch Flatlands Smokey which I could take to the shows and make a Ch with little problem.

Bob Huffman · Post by **Bob Huffman** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 11:10 pm

I have a little show dog in my bloodline because the ones I used could hunt OK. Most don't. From my experience it would be a lot easier to breed a show dog from hunting stock than it would be to breed hunting stock from show beagles. Breeding for looks is simple compared to breeding for behavior tendencies and aptitudes. I speak from experience and not jusr wishful thinking. I want everyone to have and feed what they love but find out what it really takes to be a top hunting dog before you set out to breed one from show stock. A lot of beagles can run a rabbit but few are true pack hounds that cooperate and assist and don't cheat or steal the line. It takes a little doing to breed those traits into a beagle and have them set in stone. You must do this while breeding hunt, nose, line control, endurance and many other traits, including looks, that make a real top hunting pack Beagle. This is the goal the Beagle breed should evolve toward. This indicates to me which type stock is the closest to a dual type dog. If I wanted a good wife, I probably wouldn't choose her just on her looks. This has been tried in the past with mixed results.

DDWBeagles · Post by **DDWBeagles** » Sun Dec 26, 2004 12:16 am

Just like in politics, they are extreme fringes on both ends of the spectrum. The majority of us fall somewhere bewteen those two fringes. To GUEST, I hear what you're saying, but WHAT IF.... What if someone developed a line that could successfully compete in LP or Hare Trials? Would you mind if your dog looked good, AND could run a rabbit with the best of them? I wouldn't!
Point being, on the extremes neither side is going to convience the other side on their point of view. Feed what you like. I'm happy with what I have in the kennel.
Final thought, for you hare runners out there. Why not take Gamerunner up on her offer. Take you best, most competitive bitch and cross her with some show stock. Will the pups look as good as a pure show dog or run as good as linebred field stock.... Probably not, but you've have something that could be competive in both areas. I know this is over simplifing things and the chances of this happening in one generation are slim, but it's certainly worthy of consideration.

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Sun Dec 26, 2004 2:01 pm

Right you are Bob it would almost be impossible to breed huntig hounds from show stock,however a cross of show breeding into a good hunting line can be very benefical a hybrid cross produces vigor,The man that bred the Gay Hounds regularly crossed show dogs to his line.

Honey Pot Hounds · Post by **Honey Pot Hounds** » Sun Dec 26, 2004 7:11 pm

I'd like to share this link with you all. This is the true story of a super Beagle from the good ole days

I'd like to know if anyone has his bloodlines in their hounds.

Link to short story:
http://www.geocities.com/worldofbeagles/wrinkles.htm

Alabama John · Post by **Alabama John** » Sun Dec 26, 2004 8:17 pm

Cindy
Look up the pedigree on "New City Cruiser" and see what you think.
Give us your comments.

Bob Huffman · Post by **Bob Huffman** » Sun Dec 26, 2004 9:29 pm

teaching or training show dogs to hunt is a good idea and would help the breed become dual purpose. I think most breeders of hunting stock would welcome any contribution to the Beagle. Its all a matter of what you like anyway. Some people like racehorses and some like show horses and some like a racehorse that looks good. In fact, most top racehorses look good because the traits it takes to run long and fast are also traits that look good in certain definitions of beauty. Beauty is extremely subjective where as running a rabbit to the gun under honest pack conditions is less subjective and results in a more definite breeding goal. Feed what you like and know that variety is sometimes a good thing. I love a beautiful dog with fine hair and slick muscled up looks and do breed for that but sometimes have to sacrifice looks for ability in keeping witha definite goal and standard. For me, beauty is as beauty does but that is only my taste and not for all. I also like popcorn on my icecream but doubt there are too many others that would. Running show dogs in filed trials would help the gene pool in the long run.

DarrinG · Post by **DarrinG** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 8:52 am

Bob Huffman wrote:teaching or training show dogs to hunt is a good idea and would help the breed become dual purpose. I think most breeders of hunting stock would welcome any contribution to the Beagle. Its all a matter of what you like anyway. Some people like racehorses and some like show horses and some like a racehorse that looks good. In fact, most top racehorses look good because the traits it takes to run long and fast are also traits that look good in certain definitions of beauty. Beauty is extremely subjective where as running a rabbit to the gun under honest pack conditions is less subjective and results in a more definite breeding goal. Feed what you like and know that variety is sometimes a good thing. I love a beautiful dog with fine hair and slick muscled up looks and do breed for that but sometimes have to sacrifice looks for ability in keeping witha definite goal and standard. For me, beauty is as beauty does but that is only my taste and not for all. I also like popcorn on my icecream but doubt there are too many others that would. Running show dogs in filed trials would help the gene pool in the long run.

Nice post Bob. I agree. If I am looking a pedigree of a potential cross or new pup, I want to stack all the odds I can in my favor of getting a hard-hitting hunting hound, thats what the dogs kenneled here are ultimately for....running a rabbit. If I see a bunch of non-hunting hounds in there (show stock), I'm probably gonna pass.......

I want rabbit dawgs! To each his own.

Honey Pot Hounds · Post by **Honey Pot Hounds** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 9:50 am

Hi Alabama John,
I found FC New City Cruiser on World Pedigree's. His breeding LOOKS to be a blend of show and field stock. Can you tell me more? Got a picture?
Cindy
http://www.worldpedigrees.com/Pedigree.asp?Id=34834

FC NEW CITY CRUISER HD-352979

He goes back to Wrinkles on his Dams side.....pretty far back....Int CH Thornridge Wrinkles H-008855, Tricolour, 3%

Honey Pot Hounds · Post by **Honey Pot Hounds** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:10 am

I found a dual champion from days of old on The Show Beagle Resource page

http://www.showbeagle.com/historical_information.htm

Lefgren-Lane · Post by **Lefgren-Lane** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 2:03 pm

Cindy,
I have Thornridge Wrinkles in my peds and also Gray's Linesman and most of the show hounds that are in New City Cruisers ped also. Of course the same can be said for any number of beagles, including Indian Hills Major, etc. New City Cruiser was bred by breeding Large Pack on Hare FC's to Show stock. Some of that show stock was also ran. Most of it you see in the Gay, Little Ireland peds etc. was also ran or it would not have been used. Most of the breeders of these show hounds were gone by the 1950's or at least the 1960's. Crossing show stock to field is a task best left to the very experienced breeder. In the first place there is far better conformation in many field hounds today than there is in anything in the show ring. There has not been a really good front end on a show beagle in the last 25 years. (Ask the breeder of your bitch, he is the one that made the statement to my partner at the National this year. I totally agee only I would probably go back more like 40 or even since WWII.) If you want good confirmation then the place to find it is usually among the LP Hare Hounds not the showring.

There have been a couple other statments made by some on this thread that are very obviously incorrect if the actual AKC Breed Standard is to be our guide. One poster mentioned "cat feet" as being correct for the beagle. It is not. (Look at a house cat's feet, this is not what we want for a hound. it is every bit as incorrect as an extreme hare foot, flat feet or splayed feet.) There was also a mention of "straight topline". There is NOTHING in the standard that calls for a straight topline. In fact the standard is very specfic in describing a topline that consists of "a level back" with a "slight rise over the loin" and "tail set moderately high". Moderately high tail set means the hound should have a rump that falls off toward the rear. A correct topline is virtually never seen in teh AKC Showring. You can go through years and years worth of Show Beagle Quarterlys and not find a picture of a show Ch with a correct topline, let alone any number of other faults. The standard says "free of flews". I do not know why it is so tough for show breeders and judges to understand this. Look at the pics of show Chs. Finding one "free of flews" is very rare. It is even worse in the show hounds from overseas. (Thier heads look like they came off a bad Bloodhound.) Finding a show hound with any length of upper arms, proper front angulation (laid back shoulders) and on so many have are over angulated in the rear. (Look like a dog pulling a trailer or cart.) Take a look at the shallow flat angle of the short pelvic bones that goes with the high tail set (those short straight up stiff tails UGH!!! (Standard calls for a "smooth curve") The flat short pelvic bones are C-Sections waiting to happen. (Especially when you also have the over sized over done head.) There is nothing there for proper muscle to attach to. The front ends are disasters, the number of pigieon toed hounds, over at the knee and many also at the pastern and even feet bred so tight that you see high toes even on front ends (Not too unusal to see high toes in the rear in the showring, but i have also seen Ch that were being specialed that had them in the front .) Short necks, muzzles, steep stops etc. The list can get pretty long.

As far as Mandy Bobbit having hounds entered in the pack classes. They were all show Champs that are part of her pack and not Field Champs as someone mentioned. Another comment on the Nationals. Out of all the 280 or so hounds entered, my partner who observed every class etc. saw one bitch that she thought was pretty nice. There were another half dozen or so that caught her eye, but nothing she would have brought home.

If you are considering breeding to showlines, make sure you know the standard very very well and can connect and know the direct correlation of the standard to performance in the field. Once you have that understanding you'll be looking for and judging for yourself the conformation you need that could be useful to your breeding program.

Cindy, I still think it was a shame the LP on Harebred hound you had was neutered. He would have been a nice cross on your show bitch.

Lefgren-Lane · Post by **Lefgren-Lane** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 2:10 pm

An excellent book on canine movement etc written by a beagle breeder. Take a look at "Dog Locomotion and Gait Analysis" by Curtis Brown. Published 1986.

Boomer · Post by **Boomer** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 4:43 pm

I'm amazed at the acumen of some of the people here. Just by looking at a picture of a "pretty" beagle, or just by knowing that it's a show dog, they can tell that it can't hunt! I need to get some of you to pick out stocks for me to invest in if you're that good.

There aren't many crossovers from the show ring to the field trials, but that's because each group has its time, focus, and finances on their main goal. How many people are willing to split time between show and field 50/50?

Almost every beagle I've ever met has acted like a "true" beagle when out on the grounds. Those that didn't were just as likely to come from hunting lines vs show lines vs "I'm just breeding to make money" lines.

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Show Beagles qualify in Hunt Test!!

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