brace question

[chapkosbeagles]

this whole post is just

[Competent]

I just saw this for the first time this evening. You guys crack me up. That sounds like a great idea. Don' pay any attention to the dogs and what they do. Just run out in front of them and watch the rabbit cross. Now that makes perfect sense to me. Why would I care what's the dogs are doing while running the line. Man do I feel foolish. And why in the world would I want them barking all the line when they could skip half of it and not make all that racket. It must be really obvious what a rookie I am. All those AKC seminar's have been such a waste.

Hmmmm run in front of pack to see rabbit then u see what the dogs are doing!!!! Wow u are a rookie!! Well Mark u are foolish for posting someting like that!!! Its obviously to me u don't have a clue!! U better sit in on another seminar!! I believe a AKC Rep Ought to come down and check out.some.of ur trials and see what a joke they are!!! U Crack Me up Mark wid ur Incompetence! Well stay at it men keep chasing hounds and scoring hounds wid out a mark line!! U guys are really making fools out of ur self!!

Harry Snow Jr.

[rabbitearl]

Competent.Would love to see some of your video of how its suppose to be done.With that great head on.How many rabbits did you harvest last year with them great dogs of your?

Why do you get so upset over Mark video?

[Competent]

Competent.Would love to see some of your video of how its suppose to be done.With that great head on.How many rabbits did you harvest last year with them great dogs of your?

Why do you get so upset over Mark video?

Rabbitearl y don't u come up to AKC or CKC LPH and we will show u how its done! U cld also come have a run whenever u wld like I wld love to hear ur incompetent comments face to face!! Now ya want ta talk about how many I harvested I don't shoot many hare as once I pull the trigger I can't ever train another hound on that hare!! The amount u harvest means nuttin to me!!! Now marks video fired me up due ta da fact of chasing hounds and scoring hounds wid out seeing the game and that's just uncalled for!!! How many times do I have to say it to get it in ur head ur stunned boy!!

Harry Snow Jr.

[mdbeagler]

Harry, there is not a judge in the world that could follow a good pack of hounds on cottontail let alone hare and stay with them the whole time. That is why we need to cut them off and get in front of the rabbit, like we are hunting...it's like comparing baseball to whiffleball

2nd that!

I also don't think you need a marked line to score every point. In a perfect world, yes it would be great but seriously it is a hard thing to do in the north east with the cover during trial season.

If you were actually hunting how would you get a shot at the rabbit if you didn't see it?
What if there being scored and you find out there is a house cat or fox in front of them.
I have seen that happen dogs running only to find out trash in front of them.
I don't think it is as thick in the Northeast as it is in Maryland, and we still have to see a rabbit before it can be scored. Not to mention when I attend UKC trials there are no pens with cut paths. The Trials I attend are primarily MD/PA and game is seen before scoring AKC or UKC.

[upstatenybeagler]

Competent.Would love to see some of your video of how its suppose to be done.With that great head on.How many rabbits did you harvest last year with them great dogs of your?

Why do you get so upset over Mark video?

Rabbitearl, come to Lacona, NY on June 2nd for our spring LPH trial. Harrys hounds and mine will all be runnin. The judges will be scoring where they see the rabbit cross, they wont be chasin after any dogs.

The reason Harry, Joe and the rest of us comment on his video is because AKC field trial reps teach you NOT to chase hounds but to score ONLY marked lines. You can not tell me where a rabbit went through when you are running behind a hound.

[briarhopper]

I run for pleasure , when they are on one i set myself up to where i think i will see him then after the pack passes by i may follow em for a bit just to see how each one is doin and what each one is doin. Then sit my butt down or stand and wait to see it come by again. Unless season is in then im shootin it.. I have been to a few akc trials and always either the gallery or judges seen the rabbit.

[KanesIrish]

I guess I'm going to play devil's advocate a little bit...

Though I've stepped back a little bit from judging, I've taken my regular seminar and my advanced seminar, I've also sat in on several other regular and advanced seminars. I have also had several conversations with Mel Stewart, Jim Odle, Mickey Sergio, Robert Oliver, Bill Van De Bogar, and Gordon Burdick and I have never had them tell me that you need a mark line to score dogs. I have also read the AKC rule book, about 3 times a year for the past 18 years and can't remember the rule book ever saying that you need to score a marked line.

With that said, it's truly bad practice to judge a trial with out trying to get lines and scoring them. I can honestly say that that when I get a chance to judge trials, whether it be large pack or small pack option I try to write what I see in my book every time I see the dogs while they are running. 90% of the time it's a marked line, if you were a half a second late on a crossing in a large pack trial and you still have a chance to score the dogs 1-5, why not give the dogs positive score? To give negative score out in that situation would be unfair, but in the end you would have more marked lines then anything? Just a thought, I guess you could bash me for it.

As far as Mark being a joke, I don't believe that's the case at all. As far as the trials he's goes to being a joke, ask the field reps and retired field reps listed above where they would rather go to watch a trial, or where they originally trialed before they got their jobs with the AKC...only one of them was in hare country.

So Harry, Andy, Justin, I don't disagree with you at all, but unfortunately we are in the minority as far as AKC trials are concerned...

[rabbitearl]

Sorry yall but when my dogs jump an I have to cut the dogs off to see if there running a rabbit or what ever.Don t want no part of that.ACCOMLISHMENT over STYLE WOW.I would say next time MARK puts a video on here don t look at it.Now let me back up on this.As good as you are about dogs running a rabbit.Tell me how many rabbits did they catch last year.I know after they jump and you had to run over there to see if it was a rabbit.That rabbit did not last long before it was catch.How many,OH you left this out.Show us some video on how to run a rabbit and judge a dog.I would love to see how you judge one.Just one video.Mark has show his and I like Marks dogs now show us your.

Sorry Bev,But I try to be nice about it.I don t even know Mark but what love he has show us on his dogs an rabbit hunting over the years,and some so call beagle person come on here and put him and his dogs down.Well,I was in the process of having an AKC club down here but to have people in AKC like this in there AKC clubs I m having 2 nd about it.

I ve done a lot of trials down here in the last 25 years.What yall are talking about mark line.I would love to know how the dog got there.And the reason I say this I have see a lost rabbit and most of the dogs has give up but then a dog that stays in there looking the lost pick it back up and here come the give up dogs and rabbit comes across and here comes the dogs.But the one that stay in there gets nothing.The dogs that had give up gets the score.Now what I mean by giving up there running around accomplishment nothing on the lost.I ve seen dogs stop and just pick them ears up just waiting on that one dog.Hurry Hurry up I m ready to run.

I had a friend of my that won the nal fox trial.Alot of people could not under stand when he said he left the best dog at the house.Oh yes I took the fastes dog but the one that keep the fox going was at home.Just because you have a mark line and here comes the dogs only tell me the fastes dog at that time.Now how did he get there?I ve always said if we want to see who got the fastes dog.Just get out in a big field with the dogs and turn out a rabbit giving it time to run and then turn out the dogs,The first one who run it down wins, Trial over with.No if and but about it.But a dog that stay in there and try to keep the rabbit going and here comes the give up dogs and gets the points.Im not going to be around long.

Thank you Mark for what you do to our sport.

[chapkosbeagles]

DEERHOST
tell u this i have not seen A PACK THAT I COULDENT SCOOT WITH

HELL I RUN WITH THE YOTE DOGS

[fasttrackpa]

I would like to say for the record I certainly wasn't trying to disrespect Mark's hounds or the judges at the trial in Mark's video. I din't watch the full video but can't imagine that the judges didn't have a line when they were scoring the hounds. My original point was, in that open cover at that speed they probably did in fact have a marked line, even though they were behind the hounds...probably actually got to see more of the line than we do at most SPO trials I get to.

[upstatenybeagler]

Im going to a LP trial in Canada this weekend. I will try to get a video for you all to see.

[Pine Lakes]

Boredom and astonishment have led me to reply. I've been to all kinds of formats and registries since about 1992. The videos shown aren't the style of dog I prefer to run. With that being said, I can't believe they didn't "mark" any lines with the open country, the number of people, and the pace of the hounds. To assume they didn't is probably wrong. There are some issues with the AKC rules and those hounds in the video, but then again it must be open to interpretation or there wouldn't be so many different styles of hounds. In any format of AKC skirting is a fault and could be severe enough to be eliminated. Simply, it is cheating and if the dog guilty of it shows the desire to repeat the offense then it should be eliminated. I don't run in the UBGF or any association with that style of hound, but I don't wish any ill will towards them and they don't have to justify anything to me. I have run in several Large Pack On Hare trials and feel confident enough to say that not one of them was a good test to find the best rabbit hound. They are nothing short of endurance races and no 5 human beings can accurately judge 40+ hounds blistering a hare without waiting for marked lines. The argument could be made that what you accuse the men in the vids of not seeing is happening between marked lines in a LP trial. I still enjoyed them and will go again if time allows and they too do not have to justify anything to me.

[Ohiohntr]

What we have here is...."failure to communicate"

Large Pack on Hare vs. SPO on Cottontail, judges need to adapt the judging style just like the hounds adapt to running style. I have seen a lot of pressure related ghost tracking in Large Pack, thus utilizing marked lines for positive points. I have also seen a lot of skirting, reaching, and mouth when not on scent in SPO, thus utilizing the +/- scoring.

I have judged both....

LP on Hare....you can't physically run behind 15-30 dogs burning up a hare and have to get marked lines and score them as they fly past on the line...not on the line = no score.

SPO on Cottontail.....you can physically run behind 5-7 dogs and catch extra mouth, check work, and then also cut them off to score accuracy on marked lines.

Two different worlds as far as judging goes....

A super fast and accurate hound on hare is something to behold and awesome to see.....Likewise, a hound that can pound a cottontail (or hare) and turn it out of the middle of the pack leaving the rest running trying to catch back up gets a big ole' star on my score book....you can't see that if you are standing on the marked line outside the brush on the path.

[Competent]

Boredom and astonishment have led me to reply. I've been to all kinds of formats and registries since about 1992. The videos shown aren't the style of dog I prefer to run. With that being said, I can't believe they didn't "mark" any lines with the open country, the number of people, and the pace of the hounds. To assume they didn't is probably wrong. There are some issues with the AKC rules and those hounds in the video, but then again it must be open to interpretation or there wouldn't be so many different styles of hounds. In any format of AKC skirting is a fault and could be severe enough to be eliminated. Simply, it is cheating and if the dog guilty of it shows the desire to repeat the offense then it should be eliminated. I don't run in the UBGF or any association with that style of hound, but I don't wish any ill will towards them and they don't have to justify anything to me. I have run in several Large Pack On Hare trials and feel confident enough to say that not one of them was a good test to find the best rabbit hound. They are nothing short of endurance races and no 5 human beings can accurately judge 40+ hounds blistering a hare without waiting for marked lines. The argument could be made that what you accuse the men in the vids of not seeing is happening between marked lines in a LP trial. I still enjoyed them and will go again if time allows and they too do not have to justify anything to me.

Sorry yall but when my dogs jump an I have to cut the dogs off to see if there running a rabbit or what ever.Don t want no part of that.ACCOMLISHMENT over STYLE WOW.I would say next time MARK puts a video on here don t look at it.Now let me back up on this.As good as you are about dogs running a rabbit.Tell me how many rabbits did they catch last year.I know after they jump and you had to run over there to see if it was a rabbit.That rabbit did not last long before it was catch.How many,OH you left this out.Show us some video on how to run a rabbit and judge a dog.I would love to see how you judge one.Just one video.Mark has show his and I like Marks dogs now show us your.

Sorry Bev,But I try to be nice about it.I don t even know Mark but what love he has show us on his dogs an rabbit hunting over the years,and some so call beagle person come on here and put him and his dogs down.Well,I was in the process of having an AKC club down here but to have people in AKC like this in there AKC clubs I m having 2 nd about it.

I ve done a lot of trials down here in the last 25 years.What yall are talking about mark line.I would love to know how the dog got there.And the reason I say this I have see a lost rabbit and most of the dogs has give up but then a dog that stays in there looking the lost pick it back up and here come the give up dogs and rabbit comes across and here comes the dogs.But the one that stay in there gets nothing.The dogs that had give up gets the score.Now what I mean by giving up there running around accomplishment nothing on the lost.I ve seen dogs stop and just pick them ears up just waiting on that one dog.Hurry Hurry up I m ready to run.

I had a friend of my that won the nal fox trial.Alot of people could not under stand when he said he left the best dog at the house.Oh yes I took the fastes dog but the one that keep the fox going was at home.Just because you have a mark line and here comes the dogs only tell me the fastes dog at that time.Now how did he get there?I ve always said if we want to see who got the fastes dog.Just get out in a big field with the dogs and turn out a rabbit giving it time to run and then turn out the dogs,The first one who run it down wins, Trial over with.No if and but about it.But a dog that stay in there and try to keep the rabbit going and here comes the give up dogs and gets the points.Im not going to be around long.

Thank you Mark for what you do to our sport.

I guess I'm going to play devil's advocate a little bit...

Though I've stepped back a little bit from judging, I've taken my regular seminar and my advanced seminar, I've also sat in on several other regular and advanced seminars. I have also had several conversations with Mel Stewart, Jim Odle, Mickey Sergio, Robert Oliver, Bill Van De Bogar, and Gordon Burdick and I have never had them tell me that you need a mark line to score dogs. I have also read the AKC rule book, about 3 times a year for the past 18 years and can't remember the rule book ever saying that you need to score a marked line.

With that said, it's truly bad practice to judge a trial with out trying to get lines and scoring them. I can honestly say that that when I get a chance to judge trials, whether it be large pack or small pack option I try to write what I see in my book every time I see the dogs while they are running. 90% of the time it's a marked line, if you were a half a second late on a crossing in a large pack trial and you still have a chance to score the dogs 1-5, why not give the dogs positive score? To give negative score out in that situation would be unfair, but in the end you would have more marked lines then anything? Just a thought, I guess you could bash me for it.

As far as Mark being a joke, I don't believe that's the case at all. As far as the trials he's goes to being a joke, ask the field reps and retired field reps listed above where they would rather go to watch a trial, or where they originally trialed before they got their jobs with the AKC...only one of them was in hare country.

So Harry, Andy, Justin, I don't disagree with you at all, but unfortunately we are in the minority as far as AKC trials are concerned...

INCOMPETENCE IS THROUGH THE ROOF IN THIS BEAGLE WORLD!!! Iam DONE wid this topic as its a waste of my time to talk to u fellows that dont think ya need a mark line!!!

take Care,
Harry Snow Jr.