Charging the front...any advice?

[gwyoung]

deerhost, One of the most factual posts I have read on here in a while! I hope you don't mind if I put it in my own words and say "You can't train out of a hound, what is bred into Him". Most never get this and always think that through some hard work or luck it is possible to over-ride his breeding, it is not going to happen.

[deerhost]

Thats a good saying Gary. I'm going to have to use it some time...........Andre

[Big River Beagles S]

best post i've read for a while, deerhost hit the nail on the head, and gw that saying sums her up.

[warmule]

sometimes you can make a dog do this if their run in a rabbit lot to much with other pups to much sight chaseing or in spring if in a place where theirs a lot of babys to see once he figuers out ever bark is not a sight chase he will calm down i would rather have this problem as have him under my feet

[JCM]

I think a lot of knowing what to do with this dog should be based on his family. I have seen young dogs that start rough and just keep getting rougher their whole life. Other lines of dogs go through a rough stage and then settle down throughout their whole life.

I like for our pups to be really aggressive between 1 - 2 years. They are consistently the roughest during this time. Then, as they mature, they settle into rabbit dogs, become more patient, and run better within the pack. By the time they are 4 years old, they don't even resemble that over-anxious pup that tore up races. I have seen several other lines of dogs that are the same way.

I have also seen lines of dogs where the young dogs are crazy and tear up races. Three years later, they are still rough and make it impossible to have a smooth race. I think it all comes down to knowing your dogs breeding/family and knowing how they mature.

[Ron Conroe]

gwyoug, i don't agree with you much, but i do on this one.

[Jbfous01]

To give you all a little more info this dog is kind of skiddish and doesn't have much confidence. I ran him by himself tonight and he wouldn't leave my feet without the other dogs. I finally jumped a rabbit and put him on it. He took off wide open and didn't stop hunting the rest the night. It was like a different dog, he jumped 3 more rabbits in a couple hours with more control than I've ever seen out of him. Thanks for the advice, I'm hoping the solo hunts builds him up so he can concentrate on hunting instead of racing.

[deerhost]

Jb take it for what it's worth, Like I have said, sometimes soloing that kind of dog and giving it it's own rabbit to run all the time may make the problem worse. I found it better to run that kind of dog with a clean, close quick older dog. Everytime the young dog trys to overrun and charges the front and looses the rabbit the cleaner dog will turn the rabbit or check the younger dog and take the line away. The younger rougher dog will have to keep catching up. After a while of this the younger dog if it has the brains will start running closer and being more careful to keep from getting beat from the older dog. Even this is a long shot as Like I said the running tools and style are breed into the dog and he may still be rough in 5 years. JCM, I guess I may agree somewhat with what you have posted. If you know the family line and know how they progress then some dogs could change and settle down, but I don't have 4 years to invest in a dog that I am not presently happy with at a 1 1/2 old. I found that the way a pup starts (style wise) is the way they will run for the rest of there life. There nose may improve, they may pick up a step on speed and there hunt will get a little better as they mature but only too there genetic potential that they are born with. But there basic style stays the same. I breed, start and train a few pups every year. When a dog starts I know right away if its my style dog. If not I let it go to someone who runs that style dog. If they make it to a year at my kennel then you better bet I see something I like. After a year if he is still here I REALLY like him. At two years if it is still here then it will never leave. I make the cut soon and clean, either its my kind of dog or it's not. In the past I've wasted countless hours trying to change the style by running the crap out of them as gwyoung has said, and those dogs have never turned out for me and have never changed.....................good luck to you....DH

[JCM]

JCM, I guess I may agree somewhat with what you have posted. If you know the family line and know how they progress then some dogs could change and settle down, but I don't have 4 years to invest in a dog that I am not presently happy with at a 1 1/2 old. I found that the way a pup starts (style wise) is the way they will run for the rest of there life. There nose may improve, they may pick up a step on speed and there hunt will get a little better as they mature but only too there genetic potential that they are born with. But there basic style stays the same. I breed, start and train a few pups every year. When a dog starts I know right away if its my style dog. If not I let it go to someone who runs that style dog. If they make it to a year at my kennel then you better bet I see something I like. After a year if he is still here I REALLY like him. At two years if it is still here then it will never leave. I make the cut soon and clean, either its my kind of dog or it's not. ....DH

I agree 100%. Every time out I expect to see something I like out of a pup. It doesn't have to do it all, but I have to see the reason I am keeping him. I just know from experience that our dogs go through a period of growth in their ability and they have to learn to control it. I think beagles go through phases similar to what kids do growing up. I know I went through a few phases my old man wasn't too pleased with. Once in a while I will still go through a phase that makes my wife crazy.

That is what makes knowing the dog's family/genetic potential so important. I would want to know if older parents, brothers, sisters, aunts, and uncles are rough swinging dogs. If so, then this pup may not turn out too good. If they aren't rough like that, then he may settle down and make a really nice dog.

[S.R.Patch]

Breeding is a "balancing act", we work to combine all qualities necessary in a hunting hound, but at the same time, work to balance an create a levelheaded, sensible intelligent, cooperative type hound that will contribute to a pack.
What you said reminds me of a quote from Randall, "what's born in the bone, can't be whipped out through the flesh", that's true to a great degree, but never think the manner we go about bring our hound along to being a finished hound can have no effect on them good or bad. Even Randall warned about handling a young spirited hound when developing him to his potential.
When you push a hound till it starts to commit faulty behavior, you haven't tempered the metal enough for the stress your applying and it starts to crack. Once the crack has been allowed to cement itself, the hound is always apt to revert back to this faulty behavior in the future when stressed. It's comparable to the difference in "hot roll vers. cold roll steel", one will flex and adapt to the continuous bending heat/stress, while the other will "snap" or be brittle on the third or fourth bend. It is the tempering of the metal that gives it this quality. jmho

[gun runner]

I have a male dog like this and he is 6 he has alot more good then bad by far.This dog is breed great,2 fault tight mouth and likes the front if he can hold it or not in a big pack and he will get to then front,but put him with 2 or 3 dogs he will not get to crazy for the front.I would take 10 of him in a sec if he could control the front better once he grabs it.

[deerhost]

Sounds like that Speedy Sport stuff gun runner. I'm not putting it down. I like the sport stuff and have it. Some the hardest hunting dogs out there. They are just too over competitive sometimes. If the dog can hold the front then it is not a fault. Also I bet if you can run him with two other dogs and he runs better, I bet the other two dogs are not as competitive and let him have the front most of the time. If you put 2-3 of those head bangers together, forget a smooth run. I have liked what I saw out of that stuff breed to a more controled cottontail line. I plan on breeding my Sport female anyday now....DH

[gun runner]

You are right DH he is right out of speedy sport,he is one tuff sob,i can put him anywhere and he listen.Will not run trash i will bet the fram on it,when you say here he goes he will knock you off your feet to get to that line frist.There is no quiet in him sun up to sun down.Drop the rabbit off at your feet and so on.You right the 2 i run him with the will not over step him but can hang with him,and his daughter is making him take a few back seat rides.But he is so dam over competitive when you put him a big pack,its like he has to be the alpha male in the hole pack.I would love to be able to put him in some lp trials and see how he would do.