extra barking on a rabbit track..

[augerhead]

[quote][/quote]
Mybeagles says= You show me a hound that will lead a pack of 4-5 and I will show you a hound that wont consistently circle a rabbit in cold winter conditions. Not extreme, but cold and tough, say temps in the teens with dry snow.



WOW, It's funny how people see things so differently. I totally disagree, being fast or leading the pack means they can't keep a rabbit going!!! You must be joking to try to get old Bucky fired up right.

[bucks better beagles]

I would like to ratiocinate around this issue just a bit. I think it has spread out so far from the original rant that we are looking at the very essence of why people keep beagles. To most people they are pets or something they can take into the woods with a gun and kill something. To others, they can be a relaxing day of competition and ego boosting at a field trial. All this is good.

Augerhead is right, there are those of us who see a beagle as something much more than the obvious. A rabbit "race" kindles something primeval in us. A yearning. A spirit. A competitive desire to channel an animal's nature in a direction of perfection. Once you have owned a real good dog, you always want another. Until you have owned a real good dog, you will never know what one is. If you spend a life time training and searching for good dogs, it can be very frustrating to go out with a friends blithering idiot and have him blithely sit there as if that dog is doing something OK.

I know what some of you will say: To each his own, keep what you like, who is to judge, my dog suits me, etc., etc. I maintain that if you have followed this thread this far, you are experienced enough to know what I am talking about. Good dogs are hard to find. They take a lot of time and effort. Poor dogs are a dime a dozen. Nobody likes to be around a man or his dog if they are disruptive to a race. You know what I am talking about.

[augerhead]

AME MR.ALLEN I agree totally!!!!!

[bucks better beagles]

Mybeagles: I don't eat steak. Strictly a beans and imitation meat man. I have to think that you have opened up a verbal can of worms here. You just blew old Augerheads' simple mind and mine too. You are normally so "right on" but this response is vague. So you say that even though a dog will lead a pack of 4 or more, it can't run a rabbit in the cold. Are you then saying that a dog that runs third or fourth in a pack is the one that is running the rabbit and the one that can run in the cold? Are you saying that a Grand Rabbit Champion or a high percentage of them, can't really run a rabbit? On what then do you judge? I am not close to any super dog, just a FC. I trust the owner and the dog.

If killing rabbits is what you judge them on, I maintain that the only thing you need to kill rabbits is plenty rabbits. The best kill dog I ever saw or owned was part Jack Russel and part poodle. I killed bushels of them but there were bushels to be killed. I didn't need a cold nose dog at all. You couldn't kill a 100 rabbits around here if you hunted day and night with a machine gun.

The easiest thing in the world to run is a snowshoe hare. I've killed them till I just got sick of killing. Course, that was 30 years ago. My point is the leader of the pack is how we judge if you are going to run with anyone or at a trial. I run in the cold everyday and the colder the better. It just tests my dogs. Put an old cold trailing dog out there, and you will freeze to death waiting for him to get a rabbit out of its sleep.

[Mapel Valley Kennels LLC.]

Just a thought, show me a hound that can stroke on dry snow and cold temps consistantly, and i will show you 3 of them that will probaly get drug when conditions are 90 degrees and humid. Seems like the great snow hounds aint that great when there stepping on there tongues and its 90 humitity. There is a great case for both sides but with that being said i fill like i can kill as many if not more with my culls. I just cant stand to hold a shoutgun when its 20 degrees and listen to a dog bark and bark and not produce in MY Alloted time ......I dont want to fight with anyone as i have stated my opinion only not all kentuckians.
Jimmie Abshire.

[See low]

bottom line is that some dogs are comfortable following a rabbit and some are not... it has zero to do with nose,, but in my opinion it has a hole lot to do with drive.....and by the way,,,My beagles,,,, you show me a full 15 dog that will lead a pack of 4-5 dogs and i,ll try to trade for it..... so if you get any of those that dont suit ya ,,, just let me know... im sure i could find you a good ole cold nosed dog to trade for it. .

[Casey Harner]

I feel it all boils down to brains. Just like humans, there are dumb ones and smart ones... There are humans who can solve things out and others who can't.

[Mapel Valley Kennels LLC.]

We can all stand here and pee to the end of the urinal all day, i really dont think any of us have a right answer, its all about region and personal likes and dislikes.

[mybeagles]

Are you then saying that a dog that runs third or fourth in a pack is the one that is running the rabbit and the one that can run in the cold?

What I'm saying is the focus in the field trials and the ones that make champion is on speed. Speed over rides any semblance of control of the race, check work, and hunt. Most, not all of these speedy devils are below average in winter hunting conditions. They are over competitive and run too fast and out of control to consistently circle a rabbit it tough conditions. Their not much better in hot dry conditions.

Hounds that have the big snow noses that can consistently produce rabbits in tough conditions will normally not be fast enough to get the Blue ribbons necessary to finish. They are really good rabbit dogs that slot up and run 3rd or 4th in these fast, often out of control packs and will pick up many of the tough checks or look pretty good when scenting is real bad. Otherwise they just blend into the pack.

There is always so much complaining about a mouthy dog disrupting the pack, but for peet's sake, what about the speed demons that absolutely destroy race after race. 1000 times more disruptive than a mouthy dog.

Guys that own fast hounds cant stand any extra mouth and guys with cold nose dogs cant stand the speed demons that continuously destroy races. I don't care for either, but I will put up with some extra barks in exchange for a hound that jumps most of the rabbits and circles the ones they jump any day over a hound that's hot nosed and to fast for to circle a rabbit in anything but ideal conditions.

Question for all.......Do any of you own a really fast hound with an extremely cold nose? Can run in nearly any condition....except for eddiewilliams, you have already stated you have a kennel full of them.

Second question, What could you possibly do with 100 rabbits in a reason?

That's not the point.....what I'm getting at is guys that are trying to harvest rabbits expect the rabbit to be circled back to the gun. I'm beginning to think that if the field trial guys and the ones pleasure running would try to harvest 100 rabbits in a season they would soon realize how inadequate their hounds are in that area. I know there are field trial hounds that get hunted all season and those guys know what I'm talking about, but I also know there are way too many hounds that could never circle a rabbit without serious help.

Mybeagles

[Mapel Valley Kennels LLC.]

If your happy with a hound that just wants to slot up then thats ok by me, but at some point does a dog never fight for the front? All my hounds seem to lack something we have slowly but surely try to incorparate the missing pieces of the puzzle over the years. To me speed is the number 1 easy thing to breed and get even with 1 cross. Brains and the sheer ability to run a line like they are tied to it aint so easy, i have watched many dogs run on this board and so wish i could put them in a blender and suit my personal needs.
Thinking back now probaly my all time favorite hound as far as nose and using it like he had brains was Lynn Perkins Buzzsaw dog. Not fast but steady as a rock i have seen countless offspring but they aint buzz funny how that works. Ya know when you say speed demons we all aint got em, enuff speed yes but speed demons no. So honestly i still say the Answers are endless.

[mybeagles]

If your happy with a hound that just wants to slot up then thats ok by me, but at some point does a dog never fight for the front?

Jimmy,

Come January up here that dog that slots up will be on the front and the only dog that can keep a track going.

To me speed is the number 1 easy thing to breed and get even with 1 cross. Brains and the sheer ability to run a line like they are tied to it aint so easy, i have watched many dogs run on this board and so wish i could put them in a blender and suit my personal needs.

I would say speed is the hardest thing to breed for unless you mean the reckless speed we see so much of. That's not really speed but rather over competitiveness. They must have the brains and sheer ability to run a line as tied to it to be fast otherwise they don't have speed. As I said there have been a few but they are the once in a lifetime dog, not something you can expect to have a kennel full of. What results is a for sale board full of dogs advertised as "fast" or "plenty of foot" but in reality just over competitive and disruptive which is why they are for sale.

Mybeagles

[Mapel Valley Kennels LLC.]

I do understand and agree, come this winter i would love to come to Fort Knox and hunt with you plus i can probaly stab us on some good spots. Take Care.

[augerhead]

Mybeagles says--

That's not the point.....what I'm getting at is guys that are trying to harvest rabbits expect the rabbit to be circled back to the gun. I'm beginning to think that if the field trial guys and the ones pleasure running would try to harvest 100 rabbits in a season they would soon realize how inadequate their hounds are in that area. I know there are field trial hounds that get hunted all season and those guys know what I'm talking about, but I also know there are way too many hounds that could never circle a rabbit without serious help.


I think we are still off base here.A dog abilty to run a rabbit has nothing to do with his desire to compete. A dog first and formost to suit me must by able to run a rabbit. That dooes not mean he has to be slow or bark stupid.I hunt my dogs year round all winter all summer all times of the day and night,I don't hardly ever shoot a rabbit. But thats my choice and has nothing to do with my dogs speed.The fastest dog I own is also the best track dog I have, he has the best nose, he will carry the most front end and he will be the one that gets most of the hard checks. This thought you have is way off base JMO I live right here in Mi., so I have the same weather conditions that you do. A dog that trys to stay up on the rabbit in my experience will improve the race dramaticly. We are talking about good dogs too say that fast dogs are race wreckers or can't run a rabbit is crazy. A dog that can't run a rabbit fast or slow is useless in my world. I've have been running beagles for thirty years owned hundreds, there are dogs that can run a rabbit for the catch, slow down when they have too, but have the drive to compete and dominate there pack members. Why wouldn't everybody want that!!! Oh and by the way they don't have to be mouthy to do it!

[warddog]

I'll have to say that I'm no beagle trialer but merely an ole rabbit hunter that has followed hounds both beagles and coon as well as some bird dogs for over 50 years. I've never smelled any game or bird these dogs have ran or pointed BUT one thing I have come to understand is they do what their nose tells them to do. Don't know if what they do has anything to do with brains or lack thereof or whether how they operate is totally heredatary. They smell the scent that their maker put them here to function on and they either open or point as a result of their nose. They can't do what they were put on this earth to do if their nose won't allow it, period. I've always been of the opinion that when a loss is made or a bird dog breaks a steady point when the birds move away from where they are sitting is due to the scent either deminishing or went away completely. I've seen coon hounds open, shut up, then open here and there and then bang a tree. We call that drifting a track that I have seen some coon hounds do but it isn't the common practice of them. I'm not sayin that dogs can't learn as I'm sure they can but they can learn nothing without the heredity and the nose to work with. I believe that dogs learn by rote learning which means they learn by memory via repetition and is done unthinkably with little intelligence. The memory is well served when what they do is rewarded with treats such as game in their mouth and punished when they do something wrong via an a** whooping or a mechanical stimulation. There's always much debate of which comes first the chicken or the egg and in this case the mouth or the nose and all I can say is you can't have one without the other and only the almighty up above has the real answer. The rest of us are purely speculating and have our rathers but the dogs have only what their maker gave them, no more and no less. Someone quoted Shakespeare earlier in this thread and I'll use one that I liken to this situation:
" Love is blind and lovers cannot see the pretty follies themselves commit."

[augerhead]

Wardog, Have you ever seen a silent or tight mouth coon dog that had a cold nose? I sure have.