A general forum for the discussion of hunting with beagles, guns, clothing and other equipment and just talking dawgs! (Tall tales on hunting allowed, but remember, first liar doesn't stand a chance)
fasttrackpa wrote:Rabbit dawg is most important and anyone of those titles tell me that the dog is a RABBITDAWG, and the owner is not against getting other opinions...
If the dog has really earned those titles it is a Rabbit dawg.
Then why do so many Trialers look for favorable judges before entering their dogs? In each class, dogs are placed 1, 2, 3,,4 no matter the quality of the dogs in the trial. At some trials the dogs don't jump a rabbit. The last trail that I attended, none of the eighteen dogs entered circled the rabbit, not even the winners pack. Each pack was given three to five rabbits, all jumped by the gallery, and no rabbits were circled. For a dog to win he has to perform better, in the judges opinion, than its pack mates, he isn't required to beat the game that he is pursuing.
When rabbit hunting you don't go home with a trophy if the dogs don't jump a rabbit or run it in front of a gun.
He is not a "RABBIT DAWG" for very long here if he can't jump and circle a rabbit, he will be at "First Monday" or the Animal Shelter".
"The owners EGO can be alot of weight to bear for a good hound." told by a local old timer. A good hound is a good hound.. Bottom line. Ego's have gotten in the way of a few good hounds!!!
I think RayS is on to something. The term "rabbit dog" means something different to everybody. I have what I consider rabbit dogs but to a lot of people they are not or even close. I have seen other people's " rabbit dogs" that couldn't live in my pen.
Titled dogs have at least been tested in some form of an arena. You can like it or not but, if you were to pull up to a tent where you could get old Joe Blow's so called rabbit dog, or IFC Rabbit Dog and you knew only that they were the same price, WHICH WOULD YOU TAKE? Come on be honest.
Don't give me the old ambiguous cliche about "...we all know what a rabbit dog is". I maintain that "we all" do not know. There are just too many styles, speeds, jump ability, etc. However, if you have a FC and you know the format he won in, you can get an idea of his quality.
I say give the men that trial and test their dogs against other dogs their kudos. Everybody has the opportunity to take their world beaters and test them in the arena. Excuses about judges, bad measurements, etc. are for losers.
Newt, not all trials are like what you have seen. Some of us would hunt all year if we were allowed but that is not possible...my favorite trophy is in my avatar picture.
Very well said Buck..
Andy Purnell-Dead River Beagles FC Purnell's Greens Valley Dixie FC Purnell's Dead River Rebel RIP FCGD Dead River Hare Razin Ruby FCGD Purnell's Dead River Ranger FCGD Purnell's Dead River Bloo Bell
I put no stock what so ever in dog titles. I plan never to trial dogs again. Folks choose to breed to the flavor of the month or breed to a famous titled dog and never personally see the dog run. I think folks like to brag about the famous sire of their pups. I wonder how many folks that responded to Rabbit dawgs as the top choice have truly bred to a rabbit dog or have bred to the flavor of the month. My vote is Rabbit dawg. As my saying goes: We breed rabbit dogs to rabbit dogs to get rabbit dogs.
Some guys breed no name dogs that can get it done and win field trials when they cannot hunt. Some do not. Like you say, rabbitdog to rabbitdog.
Andy Purnell-Dead River Beagles FC Purnell's Greens Valley Dixie FC Purnell's Dead River Rebel RIP FCGD Dead River Hare Razin Ruby FCGD Purnell's Dead River Ranger FCGD Purnell's Dead River Bloo Bell
Dave, I agree with you..."As my saying goes: We breed rabbit dogs to rabbit dogs to get rabbit dogs." We do it all the time. Please See my post to the thread about "Michigan Stud Dogs".
Without the trials, however, how do we decide what is a "rabbit dog" without some sort of testing. I can't go to West Virginia or North Carolina or Kentucky to look at a stud dog. I can look at his pedigree however and get an idea of what he may be. Everybody's FC isn't necessarily the rabbit dog of choice but neither is the rabbit dog in somebody's back yard.
The trialers are willing to show their dogs for better or for worser. I am sure most people with a "rabbit dog" would be willing to do the same but it would have to be close by. I know a guy named Charley who will drive a 1000 miles to run his non-titled dogs with another man's dog just to see what he has but, how many people are there like that?
Tony83: Come on brother...buy and cry? If a person buys a dog for whatever reason, it is his and not the fault of the seller. Nobody buys a pedigree. They buy a dog. Just saying. I would rather have one out of AppalachionConnections Weedeater's Ghost than most other's around. And it is a proven cross.
You guys have answered the question about what is a rabbit in just the last few posts.............there is no definition of a rabbit dog.............or at least not one definition that fits every situation.
This is gonna sound like a stupid comparison but here goes anyway...........................
I fertilize and kill weeds in people's lawns for a living. Now a "weed" in our business is defined as any undesirable plant and that can pertain to anything from something in the lawn to something in a bark, stone or flower bed. I have customers that will define anything in their lawn that is not grass as a weed........some call different grass types in their lawn a weed..........most call grass in the beds a weed.........and so on. My business is to do whatever suites the customer so if they want me to avoid killing the clover then I do. If they want me to kill all of the dandelions then that's what I do. But my personal definition of a weed would include both of those plants............their definition is different. I guess my point is each situation is different and each person can and will expect something different. While the majority of people would agree with my take on weeds that doesn't change the true definition of the word and it's meaning which basically is saying whatever is acceptable to each individual.
Like I said, kind of a dumb analogy but it's a comparison I can relate to.
Some people wanna see the rabbit so they can add it to their game bag. Some people wanna sit on the tailgate and just listen to the dogs. Some people are ok with getting in there and jumping every rabbit their dogs run while others wouldn't consider wearing a pair of chaps into the woods. I agree and disagree with everyone's take on this one because it has to be summed up once again to each his own.
Bunnyblaster
"You can't change the past but you can ruin the present by worrying about the future."
fasttrackpa wrote:Rabbit dawg is most important and anyone of those titles tell me that the dog is a RABBITDAWG, and the owner is not against getting other opinions...
If the dog has really earned those titles it is a Rabbit dawg.
Then why do so many Trialers look for favorable judges before entering their dogs? In each class, dogs are placed 1, 2, 3,,4 no matter the quality of the dogs in the trial. At some trials the dogs don't jump a rabbit. The last trail that I attended, none of the eighteen dogs entered circled the rabbit, not even the winners pack. Each pack was given three to five rabbits, all jumped by the gallery, and no rabbits were circled. For a dog to win he has to perform better, in the judges opinion, than its pack mates, he isn't required to beat the game that he is pursuing.
When rabbit hunting you don't go home with a trophy if the dogs don't jump a rabbit or run it in front of a gun.
He is not a "RABBIT DAWG" for very long here if he can't jump and circle a rabbit, he will be at "First Monday" or the Animal Shelter".
Newt. If you noticed, I said if the dog "REALLY EARNED" those titles and if the dog earned the titles it matters less who the judges were and what states it was trialed in.
fasttrackpa wrote:Newt, not all trials are like what you have seen. Some of us would hunt all year if we were allowed but that is not possible...my favorite trophy is in my avatar picture.
Very well said Buck..
I agree, there are good and bad in all facets of the game. Just giving an opinion based on some of my experiences. If I lived in your area I would enter some trials. I like the line that you run.
I agree with Buck also. I'd take the FC. I have yet to see a "Rabbit Dawg" sell for %14,000.00
However, if food was in question and not money, I probably would have a tough decision.
Thanks beaglers for all the responses. I have seen some very interesting and thought provoking comments! I do believe field trial formats canbe a very good place to display a beagles ability, and a title earned should speak of a beagles abilty, howere, I have witnessed alot of beaglers that try to seperate the two, "RABBIT DAWG" from "FIELD TRIAL" dog, I personally feel that the two should go hand in hand. Sometimes as beaglers and judges I feel maybe we just need to put the score card down and just watch!
[("buck better beagles"]Tony83: Come on brother...buy and cry? If a person buys a dog for whatever reason, it is his and not the fault of the seller. Nobody buys a pedigree. They buy a dog. Just saying. I would rather have one out of AppalachionConnections Weedeater's Ghost than most other's around. [quote][/quote]. BBB not buying and crying just stating the facts. Rabbit Hunting is not rocket science either a dog hunts or does not, it can either run a rabbit or it cannot. I can see where something such as speed can differentiate between individuals but the basics should be the same globally. Ninety nine percent of the dogs I've purchased or saw purchased from this site are not as advertised. Now if the whole rabbit hunting world is ignorant to what a dog should be than why are they in the sport. I do know what dogs are supposed to do and when I get one that doesn't I cull it instead of recirculating trash to disappoint someone else. Honesty BBB is what I'm talking about my slogan is try it or don't buy it. The only good buys I've seen come from the Internet are oversized dogs that won't measure in for the field trailers. My dad once said speaking about dogs "if it's for sale than there's probably something wrong with it" this makes sense to me more and more these days.
tonyallen83........i agree with your ideals on what is being sold on here. i look at the adds and can not build a dog up like i see on here just to make a sell. i also agree with the fact that beagling is not a science. it is more of an art.
old school.. your statament that trial dogs and hunting dogs are the same can be true and i would like it to be true but not all can interchange at a level that is equal. i dont believe that the best hunting dogs make the best trial dogs and vice a avera.
a rabbit dawg will get the job done and you think " my dogs didnt do very good today , they struggled, but after remembering the day you have circled every rabbit you killed and accounted for every one that holes up. i want rabbit dawgs but a title does not keep them from being a dawg.
I don't field trial, but for me this is the first place I start looking for a stud dog. Fld. Trial results and stud adds are published every month and is a far larger source of potential good dogs than any other that I am aware of. I have bred to good dogs that weren't Fld. Champions that later finished, as well as breeding to dogs that never finished but I never bred to a dog that I would not consider a good rabbit dog and I never will. If a dog is a Fld. Champion , it is safe to assume that the dog does something well, now, he may have more negatives than what you like along with his good traits or he may be a different style than your female or they may have the same fault, in that case don't breed to him. But, most Fld. Champions that I have saw all did something very well. and like I said when considering a potential stud dog this is the first place I look. Now for the non- Fld. Champion, the first thing you need to ask the owner and look for yourself while watching him run is, Why isn't he a Fld. Champion. There is a reason for it. Sometimes it is because the man doesn't want to trial and this is fine, But it might be because his dog does something that will get him eliminated immediately, and that is the reason he doesn't trial. Bottom line. Watch him run, if you don't like him don't let the fact that he is a IFC. color your decision, if he like the way he runs and he is not an IFC. who cares, But take a hard look at styles, traits and like faults, and breed accordingly. I for one will be looking in the direction of field Champions when selecting a stud, I have found it much easier to find a good hound to breed to this way. In my opinion, one of the biggest mistakes I see people make while breeding is, to breed two dogs that may very well be good dogs but differ tremendously in stlye, method, etc; They have a female that they like and see a male that they really like, which runs very different than their female and say" I want some pups like that"! Well, it probably won't happen. In this instance either breed to a dog with the same qualities, method, stlye, etc; as your female, or get a different female to breed to the male, something that resembles him.
