Is finishing a dog to akc fc still a big acomplishment

[JCM]

We may all not agree on every little item, but at the end of the day, we all know we love our format.

That's a good point. Discussions like this could benefit all formats if they are like this one, with knowledgable beaglers sharing well-thought out opinions. This might be the one time where the Internet actually improved beagling.

As someone that runs a lot of ARHA LP, we probably should be having a similar discussion about all of the judges in ARHA that allow barking. The problem of judges in LP not minusing dogs is a much more serious problem than AKC judges allowing dogs to get rough. Many judges in LP will allow dogs to ruin casts by pulling dogs out of the check area. They don't want to upset the handlers by giving minuses. At least in the Midwest, most judges would pick the faulty barking dogs up.

Is finishing a dog a big accomplishment? Yes!
Can all formats be improved to make finishing a dog continue to be a big accomplishment? Definitely yes!

[old blood beagles]

MidWest Guys! Best Federation in Beagling! Let's remember that! We may all not agree on every little item, but at the end of the day, we all know we love our format. We may differ some in the style of dog we individually like but we have a common ground. As I have stated before it always seems others try to attack us but I never see us attacking them!

Jeff, I have not jumped on this topic until I read the above post.

MidWest is the best federation along with the best hounds and the best houndsmen!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I do agree that "some" hounds are too rough but there are alot of great hounds also being trialed. We as the owners, breeders, and handlers of the fine hounds in the MidWest need to step up and show the rest of the beagle world what we have to offer, so I would like to ask all the members of this board to come out and watch/join us in our next few hunts. When you come, bring your pin and paper and judge the hounds for yourself and see what type of hound won and or placed that day and then go to the next trial and do the same and I will tell you right now that the best, clean running, line control, close check work hounds will win or place above any of the rougher hounds being ran.

Is a FC in the AKC a big deal? Without a doubt H'LL YES and when some of the places/wins came from the MidWest trials with all the talent that is out there..................................WOW

Duane Bowling
Proud Member of the MidWest Federation
Vice President of Jessamine
Owner and Breeder of some fine hounds that have been trialed IN THE MIDWEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Friend to all true houndsmen and will give credit to those of have earned their FC title in the AKC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ron Conroe]

the midwest is the best out there, and they do have some of the best judges around. we all complain about something, if we did'nt we would not be human. instead of talking how bad the judges are doing, we ought to be giving them credit for working there butts off. i think for every bad judge, there is 20 or more good ones in the midwest.

[toldyouso]

Ron u r on a roll again i agree we only point out the bad ones and never give props to the good ones. But the old saying is one bad apple ruins a bushel. So why not get rid of the bad ones. Keep the honest ones and stone the buddy judges and we all know they exsist. I have said it before its easy to fix in the Midwest do not post the judges and roll them out just like little pack. Have your four judges in a hat for that day and draw the first two judge big males the next two judge little males all is fixed. well it will never be perfect but better.

[Ridge View]

LaMarr and Eddie


LaMarr your words below from an earlier post. Sure looks like to me a certian bloodline was mentioned here. Care to explain why you say no particular bloodline was mentioned?

LaMarr Qoute:

15 inch males in the mid west are 100 percent no different than little pack dogs,its way more accomplishment over style now.i think turbo had a huge influence on this.seems to me around his era is when the change started to happen.im sure some people love the change and im sure some hate the change,but its the way it is and its not gonna change,akc bloodlines are going to have to adjust or they will fade away in midwest in my oppinion[/b]

[jdmart]

Have your four judges in a hat for that day and draw the first two judge big males the next two judge little males all is fixed. well it will never be perfect but better.

AKC does not allow that. Judges must be approved for the class they judge 90 days before the trial.

[LaMarr Rhoades]

if u dont think the midwest has changed ask yourself how many little pack champions was also akc field champions 12 years ago,now how many are both today,and out of those that are both i would venture to say most go back to turbo....now if this point is wrong than i am completely wrong...i was one of the first to ever breed to turbo [2 females] and consider don a friend,so i am not hateing on him in any way,also i just drove 4 and a half hours to pick up my switch a gear pup,i was simply saying it takes a different kind of dog to win these days..

[BG BEAGLER]

What's the bitch???

[LaMarr Rhoades]

chips female

[Earl Rice]

After spending the last 30+ minutes reading all the various post I have been inspired to write a poem. However, before I share my rhyming words of wisdom and humor I would like to take a moment to share my opinion on the subject at hound!!!

Is it a major accomplishment to finish a hound in the Mid-West? I honestly believe it is and always will be a major accomplishment to finish a hound in the AKC Mid-West Gundog Federation. I say this because any hound that can get 3 wins and 120 points have accomplished something great. It requires a lot of time to run a hound to keep it in shape for a Mid-West trial. Not to mention the money spent on gas/ hotels/ and entry fees. So anyone that finishes a hound in the Mid-West be proud of your hound.. No matter how rough I think many of them are getting!!!

Are hounds rougher now than 10-15 years ago? I don’t think so. We had rough hounds back then. I judge Frank’s hounds. I know what rough is. (Sorry Frank) However, I do believe we have a larger number of the rough dogs now days. I also believe we have a larger number of judges that are placing these rougher hounds. Like Jamie said as a judge we have to try to follow the rule book but if you have a larger number of the rougher hounds running then chances are some of them are going to place. Judges must judge what is on the ground. With that being said I realize some judges seem to prefer rougher hounds than other judges but it may not be because they like a rougher hound. I’ll use myself as an example. If I’m judging a pack of hounds and I only have on rough hound then normally it’s fairly easy to catch the one hound getting wide in it check, but when you have a pack of 6-7 hounds and 3-4 are getting wide then it not so easy anymore. Something I have noticed at trials is many times when judges pick up hounds for getting rough they tell the handlers the dogs were skirting. Why do most hounds get picked up for skirting??? Why not get hounds for getting wide or blowing over the end and messing up the race??? Well because even a little fat judge like Ron Wagner can see a hound skirt but it’s not a easy to keep up and see the dogs that blow over the end 30-50 yards. Like Jeff said AKC has several demerits such as swinging, pottering, skirting, etc. etc, etc., However some are more series than others. I guess my point is the more series demerits that mess up the smooth running of the pack are normally the demerits that are harder to catch. Which normally is why today’s packs can’t run 2-5 minutes without a serious break down…. Normally you hear packs run 3-5 minutes, then be broke down 5-10 minutes.

I also want to add just because a hound finishes in the Mid-West it doesn’t mean it’s a true rabbit hound. Let me see if I can explain why I feel this way. I think a true Mid-West Gundog FC that is a rabbit hound should be able to run/compete/place/ and win in any and all conditions under a variety of judges. If a hound gets a win then has to run in 10-15 more trials before it get head high scenting then I don’t think that’s a true rabbit dog. Seems like today many hounds/handlers prefer that head high running. Like I have said before fast hounds can look good during head high scenting and good conditions, but a rabbit hound can get it done in any condition.

Many people agree that hounds are getting rougher but why? Is it like I said earlier the hounds are getting so rough and they are so many more rougher hounds that it just about impossible to catch all the rough hounds. Is it because we have more judges that like a rougher hound? Is it because a hounds gets that FC in front of it’s name and people start breeding to the rough sh@&$&#$&t then in return they produce even more rough sh@#&#&$#&$t???? I don’t know. However, I know it’s not fair to blame just the judges, because many times we can only judge what is put in front of us…..

I’ll end my post with this. I’ve heard handlers say the hounds are getting so rough they were just going to start pleasure running more and stop trialing. That is not the answer. If you believer the hounds are getting too rough then get you judges liscences and help clean them up. Of if you not able to judge, then try to run under the judges that have a reputation of placing cleaner running rabbit hounds.

Sorry Frank, Ron if I made you mad just trying to add some humor to a serious post!!!

Now time to type a poem,
Earl Rice

[old blood beagles]

Earl, I read all of that expecting to read the words of an artist at the end..........how you have let me down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! on the poem that is.

But you did have a few words of wisdom when you trashed Frank and Wags....lol

[BG BEAGLER]

Earl ur a good judge. Prolly the most conservative judge in the Mid West. You have finished dogs in the Midwest....Do the curtains match the drapes??? The dogs u finished do they match your judging style??? Would you consider them clean or rough???

[Earl Rice]

Matt,
I finished three hounds in the many years that I trialed. Only one hound was as clean and as good of a rabbit dog after finishing for their FC title. That was FC Blazing Trails Blue Baron, he was still a clean track running fool. However, he always lacked the hunt I liked when he was younger. He had more hunt than alot of dogs and never got picked up for lack of hunt but still needed more of that brush busting hunt that most of my hounds had. However, when he turned around 5-6 then his hunt improved and then I considered him a complete rabbit hound. Now my other two FC's Rosie and Diamonds both got rougher than I liked. Most becuase of the pressure of trialing. They picked up the habit of skirting. I had a tough time getting the last win on both hounds. I had to put them up for some time, solo their brains out and then they settled down enough to get their last win. But in my heart they still were better hounds before the pressures of trialing took a toll on them. With that being said I would like to add that they were still great rabbit hounds. Although they skirted in trials and sometimes even during hunting they normally hadn't picked up the more serious demirits like many of the shits eaters placing/running today. (Notice I said many not all because I do believe Mid-West still has some great rabbit hounds running/placing/and winning). Both my hounds hunted very hard, could jump rabbits and could make those 90 degree turns that saved the race. They seldom blew over the pack 30-60 yards and messed up the smooth running of the pack. And the tougher the conditions the better they shined. She could slow down and walk checks out on those tough scenting days so I still could kill rabbits on most days. I didn't need to worry about taking them out and they couldn't circle the rabbit back to the gun. As for their trial record I don't know for sure but I would still say they made winners pack or placed in 80% of trials they were entered in. Barron on the other houndwas a freak and had an great trial percentage. He was run in 20-40 trials I think and placed in every trial except two. Which proves my comments from above that a rabbit hound can run, place, and win in most any condition and under most judges. Can I get an AMEN brother!!!!!!!!

[Earl Rice]

OLD BLOOD, (Here is the poem I promised)



Does finishing a dog in AKC mean a lot?
More and more people seem to think not.

If Mid-West dogs are getting too rough,
Then it is up to the judges to say enough is enough.

Now I’m a judge that don’t like the hounds to get too fast,
Mainly because I like for my race to last.

AKC has rules against hounds swinging, skirting, and blowing over the line,
However, some judges think all these demerits are just fine!

Many judges need to go back and read the AKC rule book,
Then maybe they can give the hounds a better look.

AKC states that a hound must be picked up if it is messing up the smooth running of the pack
Judges need to do our job and stop worring about handlers or so called friends talking about us behind our back.

I haven’t seen many hounds that can run and control a pack with pure speed,
Mainly, because it’s nose and brains these hounds need.

But why are Mid-West hounds running this way?
Probably because most of the rough hounds are coming from ARHA.

I’m not saying the ARHA hounds are all the blame,
It’s the judges that judge like their still in ARHA, what a shame.

The days conditions, not the judges that should determine whether the hounds run fast or slow,
Most handlers will agree with me, even my buddies from WFO.

Fast hounds look great on big running rabbits and high scenting days,
But a rabbit hound can get it done in most conditions and in various ways!!

Remember run what you like and like what you run
Just try to chill out and have some fun.

If you like a fast hound the cut them loose and let go,
I myself prefer them a little bit slow.

Now I’m not saying that my opinion is always right,
Nor am I trying to get on this computer and start a big fight,

I’m just trying to have a little fun and maybe make someone smile
Plus I needed to polish my poem writing since I haven writen one in quit a while.

I’ll try to end this poem with an upbeat and positive line,
Run your hounds in AKC, ARHA, or even UKC but try to have a good time!!!!!!


If you would like to purchase an autograph copy of this poem all proceeds go to the Mid-West Gundog Federation.

Make checks / money orders payable to
Mid-West Gundog Federation
ATT: (Save the true Mid-West Gundog and start picking up that rough crap)
PO Box 13
Ape Yard, Ky 40729



PS: WFO boys I’ll autograph a copy for free, just for you guys!!!!!

[Mike Gibeaut]

Earl,Jon told me Jamie was the talker but after reading your poem I don't know.Maybe when you and Jamie are riding together you can let Jamie drive and that will give you more time to put pen to paper and polish your poetry.LOL