What makes a good reproducer, a good reproducer??

[Alabama John]

In the world of beagles, it is usually the stud dog that was bred to the most.

Very few beaglers breed to a dog they have ever run or hunted with, but, go by advertising or field trial titles only.

Some of the best reproducers are never known outside their local area and never had their name in print or their picture taken.

Your best bet to get what you want reproduced is to get pups off two dogs you have seen do what you want your pups to do.

Cheapest in long run and what most beaglers should do is to buy a dog you see do what you want. Forget breeding, training, shocking, all the disappointments, selling off what you don't want and your failures, feeding 5-8 times as many as you want to keep to be sure you get the best one from a litter, just put the dog what you want in your pen and forget about all else. What a savings that will be in money and frustration.

[warddog]

Rabbitsmoker, You get that varibility from the pups within the very same litter just as a family of people has varibility even in Identical twins. That's why I suppose breeding has never been perfected so as to clone the offspring as there are numerous other factors that never seem to be unlocked. What does happen with breeding pedigrees or known ancestry's is the traits that occur predominatly in the offspring. Does that hold true 100% of the time, NO as there is just no absolute in how the genes will match up in every fertilized egg. All that is being done with breeding the pedigrees is stacking the statistics on your side with no guarantee of anything just as when you pull that level on a one armed bandit. Round and round she goes and where she stops nobody knows. If that bandit has many more cheeries to land on the odds of hitting them are increased BUT not guaranteed. It's still gambling on the outcome.

[10ACbeagles]

[quote="Alabama John"]Very few beaglers breed to a dog they have ever run or hunted with, but, go by advertising or field trial titles only.
Some of the best reproducers are never known outside their local area and never had their name in print or their picture taken.
quote]

cosigned!

[bill huttozac]

Alabama John writes: - Cheapest in long run and what most beaglers should do is to buy a dog you see do what you want. Forget breeding, training, shocking, all the disappointments, selling off what you don't want and your failures, feeding 5-8 times as many as you want to keep to be sure you get the best one from a litter, just put the dog what you want in your pen and forget about all else. What a savings that will be in money and frustration.

John, you could not be any more forthcoming with solid advice, even if you tried. After some 60 years of training, hunting, buying, selling, trading, giving away and culling by other means, I have decided not to raise any more pups. I am on my way to culling down to 4 dogs (all females) and when a replacement is needed, I will buy the dog that best compliments the ones that I have already. I won't be hung up on a particular bloodline, registered or grade. You are right, this, for me, will save all of the disappointments and frusterations.

In short, you post was super good "food for thought" and much consideration should be given to it. IMO, there would be more contented Beaglers.

[rabbitsmoker]

AMEN to that Mr.Bill i have come to that conclusion also i have a solid pack now i have raised all out of my dogs and couldnt be no happier but the stress and frustration i ask myself was it worth it yes it was but the wait killed me I may raise 1 litter here or ther but for the formost i will just buy if she dont meet my requirements selL and move on But my hats off to those that raise alot of of pups i done it for 4 years now and got my own bloodline guess im crazy all the hard work is over all i need to do is continue but with movin into town and all i got to take a new approach

[TheLittleBlackBook]

I will catch heck for this, but it is the pedigree.
When I visited Mr. Capozzi, he let me read Willet's little pocket books. In the books were crosses and results of litters. By certain hounds names, there was the capital letter P for producer I believe of what Willet wanted in his hounds. Willet said, the more you can get these hounds in a pedigree the better the odds for your pups.
Many subscribe to the theory of breeding best to best, others have tried the method of "Red Letter" breeding where the pedigree is loaded with Field Champeen hounds, but still, consistency or ability to reproduce what is hoped for is always a fleeting phantom, just out of grasp.
It is the pedigree of family breeding that rewards the faithful . The path is not always a straight line, but knowing the hounds involved along with the producing ability of what they've come from seems key to being above the average success of any other method I've tried.
Words mean little without the experience to back it up, so I recommend finding a family of hounds you like and give it a try. Stick with the breeder who's producing what you like and listen to all he will tell you, for his experience will save you many years of trial and error. jmho
Good luck with your venture.

This is a very good post, but needs a little modification.

A "pedigree" isn't really worth much, per se, but what is worth its weight in gold is 1) a deep knowledge of the dogs in the pedigree, which knowledge is only useful if 2) that pedigree is filled with truly prepotent dogs.

"Knowing a pedigree" won't do anyone much good if the dogs in the pedigree are worthless ... and having good dogs in a pedigree won't help much if the person reading the pedigree doesn't know the good dogs from the bad ones. Therefore, BOTH factors must be present in order to breed good dogs reliably and consistently: a pedigree filled with truly prepotent dogs and the knowledge of which dogs in that pedigree should be linebred/inbred upon. Naturally, all offspring should be evaluated on their own merits as the breeding program carries forward ...

The most vital element to a good breeding program is understanding THE FACT that, just as some dogs run faster than others, while some dogs have a better nose than others, so too do some dogs simply produce better than others, which exceptional ability to produce is called "prepotency." And I absolutely agree that, if these two factors are in place (a truly good family pedigree filled with a carefully-planned archetecture of legitimately prepotent dogs and a breeder's deep knowledge of which dogs in that pedigree carry the most favorable traits (and/or the ability to produce them!), that any dedicated person so armed with this kind of a breeding foundation will reliably and consistently produce better dogs than the guy "buying here" and "buying there" and mixing unknown/unrelated dogs together.

But this kind of deep knowledge and selectivity takes time to acquire ... and most people are too impatient (and really lack the dedication) to stay with anything long enough to do the selecting/culling required, through multiple generations, to get to the point of having a truly clean and prepotent gene pool.

Most people "just want a huntin' dog" ... and can't be bothered with how to "make" one




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Cheapest in long run and what most beaglers should do is to buy a dog you see do what you want. Forget breeding, training, shocking, all the disappointments, selling off what you don't want and your failures, feeding 5-8 times as many as you want to keep to be sure you get the best one from a litter, just put the dog what you want in your pen and forget about all else. What a savings that will be in money and frustration.

This is good advice also, in exactly the opposite way as SR Patch's post. For the person who doesn't care about breeding, and just wants a good hunting dog, then I agree with you: forget breeding and just buy an already-proven good dog. This will save you years of trial and error, no question.

However, some people really do like breeding dogs, and they are into the breed on a much deeper level, to the extent they want to get to the point of producing what they want on their own yard ... reliably and consistently ... and for that I think SR Patch's post was a good one for this purpose.

Cheers!

Jack


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[warddog]

Nice post Littleblackbook. I think you, Patch and I have stated basically the same things BUT you may have went into more detail of what I think Patch and I took for granted. When I state breeding "pedigrees" I assumed that folks would be doing so because they knew what such pedigrees had produced in the past as far as traits in their offspring that they breeder likes and wants. Never would I breed strictly by paper without knowing what that paper had produced in the filed. Of course I'm no breeder but I have raised a few litters to try to keep or to better what I have be it coon hounds or beagles and having knowledge of not only what's on the paper but whats in the filed is of great importance when it comes to reproducing. There is no guarantee but that knowledge in my book just gives one better odds of the offspring being more to what the breeder is looking for as the gene pool is more limited.

[TheLittleBlackBook]

Nice post Littleblackbook. I think you, Patch and I have stated basically the same things BUT you may have went into more detail of what I think Patch and I took for granted. When I state breeding "pedigrees" I assumed that folks would be doing so because they knew what such pedigrees had produced in the past as far as traits in their offspring that they breeder likes and wants. Never would I breed strictly by paper without knowing what that paper had produced in the filed. Of course I'm no breeder but I have raised a few litters to try to keep or to better what I have be it coon hounds or beagles and having knowledge of not only what's on the paper but whats in the filed is of great importance when it comes to reproducing. There is no guarantee but that knowledge in my book just gives one better odds of the offspring being more to what the breeder is looking for as the gene pool is more limited.

Thank you. I just thought this needed clarification, precisely because there are many people who can "recite pedigrees" ... all the way back ... but they don't actually have any first hand working knowledge of the actual dogs behind the "names"

In other words, a breeder being able to "recite pedigrees" ... and a breeder actually knowing all of the positive working traits (and the negative working traits! ) of the individual dogs ... are WORLDS APART in the level of understanding of what one is doing as a breeder

For example, I know a lot of guys in other parts of the country, who bought dogs from me and who can "recite the names" of the dogs I have owned that are in their pedigrees ... however, these people haven't ever actually laid eyes on a single dog whose names they can recite ... while I have personally owned, fed, bred, and evaluated every single one of them with my own eyes and judgment. So, again, this is a big difference in depth of understanding, between the ability to "recite names" and an actual working knowledge deep into your own pedigrees.

And it takes a long time to be able to get to a point in one's breeding program where they actually know every single dog in their 6-generation pedigree, and actually know WHY these dogs were bred, and where they know first hand if the results of their breedings met their expectations, where they fell short, and what was done to correct any weaknesses ... while carrying forward with their consistent strengths.

In other words, some people can't even recite the pedigrees of their own dogs. Others can recite the pedigrees just fine, but really don't know much about the actual dogs in the pedigrees. But when a person has a truly good eye for a dog, and he is actually breeding his own dogs that he has bred and selected-for over multiple generations ... this is essentially the difference between making breedings based on true knowledge of the entire gene pool ... versus making breedings based on "imagination" ... thinking you know something about pedigree-ful of dogs you never laid eyes on ... and essentially being reduced to "hoping" that "this cross" will work with "that cross" ... which is the way most beginners breed dogs.

Take care,

Jack

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[S.R.Patch]

I think your so full of bologna you need to stick to writing books and making movies.
You did give me a chuckle now that I can understand myself since I've been "modified", tho...
Careful, or your going to founder on yourself. Humble pie only, for your supper tonight.

[TheLittleBlackBook]

I think your so full of bologna you need to stick to writing books and making movies.
You did give me a chuckle now that I can understand myself since I've been "modified", tho...
Careful, or your going to founder on yourself. Humble pie only, for your supper tonight.

Why the sour attitude Patch? I said yours was a good post, but a few points needed clarification.

You said I am full of balogna ... could you point out anything that I said that was incorrect? I would be happy to debate any facts with you, in a mature fashion, but if all you want to do is cry and insult I really don't have the time for it.

In the end, I am not sure if it is "I" who needs to eat humble pie ... or if it is "you" who needs thicker skin so you can handle simple comments on your posts like an adult.

Jack


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[S.R.Patch]

No sour grapes, I enjoy sitting out in the evening listening to the mocking birds repeat their song in fashion, why sometimes I myself join in and lead the procession...
It was said, "ole joe crow, told all he know'd",... but some thought, he just liked to hear himself talk. ...very entertaining the different birds.