How Important is close check work?

[Dale Pea]

I dont trail, I hunt. If I am in a big briar bed I want my dogs to put some heat on that rabbit so he will come out and give me a shot, I dont want him to take all day doing it. Put some heat on Mr bunny. I would rather watch paint dry than listen to some slow footed dog take an hour or two to make one circle.

[tinymwoods]

Great topic Troy. This is something I have looked at many times. At a recent hunt we took out a cast with 5 dogs. 3 were fast swingers and 2 were conservative line dogs. The fast swingers destroyed the conservative dogs. Even if the conservative dogs found the check, it seemed that the swingers would also find it about 30 feet ahead and be gone before the conservative dog had it. At the same hunt a different cast had 2 swingers and 3 line control hounds. The line control hounds were far superior in the cast as the running conditions were tough and the cover was thicker. So which is better? What you like is.

My dogs are conservative dogs, but I am starting to breed a little extra swing into them if I can. I have always believed a medium fast-fast line control dog was the best. I want a dog that can run a track. When the track is lost, I don't mind if they reach to find it. I don't want a pack of dogs just racing each other all the time, I want them racing after a rabbit.

Troy is right that a line control, close check dog can loose his own style when ran against faster, wilder dogs. I have seen this many times, some of them hunting with Troy . I grew up with UKC style dogs, but I have been schooled too many times by LP dogs, that I now look at foot speed and swinging ability some when I breed. I still like a more conservative dog, but if they want to reach out 20-30 yards when a track is lost, good for them. They will get a track going as often and sometimes more often than a close check dog.

More important to me is not that a dog will swing to pick up a check, but that it can GEAR DOWN TO RUN A TRACK WHEN NEEDED.

[bucks better beagles]

Speed kills. Always has and always will. If a dog swings, gets it and can run it when he gets it, that checker will always be playing back-up. I hate back-up singers and back-packers.

[R.Ooten (RUFF)]

Guys im in no way nocking any type of dogs you run. I should have left off Little Pack I just used them because T Lee said he was a LP judge.
This could fall under any beagle format. But beagles Hark to dogs that are running. If they have the rabbit or not the pack will hark to the
dog that says "I GOT IT, I GOT IT " not all dogs fall for it and the ones that don't are smarter or more wise to the dog that over runs all the time
I've had a bunch that would over run and would take my pack on a ride and i've had dogs in the same pack get wise and make the front dog
look silly every time he over ran the rabbit. but in a trial theres not much time to get wise to a dog that the wise dog has never ran with.

I was just telling T Lee what I thought was going on in the checks from the info he gave.

P.S. Like I said this is JMO and this and a buck twentyfive will get you a Coke.

[deerhost]

I have seen a little of both kinds of dogs. I like them to run with good foot but I like them close and clean. I don't like them swinging and reaching too far. I don't think there is alot of skill in swinging and reaching. I think all that is is gambling for the line, Some dogs just become good gamblers but that still all it is gambling. Swingers, reaching, over running the line, leaving the check to try to pick up the line in front of the pack....Those dogs are a dime a dozen in my opinion. No offense to anyone. Thats just my opinion...DH P.S. A perfect dog to me is around 6 1/2 to 7 1/2 on speed, with a great nose that can make the turns and can hang on to a twisting turning cottontail and can gear up or down, That type of dog can hang with a faster dog and can run with a medium speed dog without causing break downs at every turn.

[bucks better beagles]

Deerhost is absolutely right: " A perfect dog to me is around 6 1/2 to 7 1/2 on speed, with a great nose that can make the turns and can hang on to a twisting turning cottontail and can gear up or down, That type of dog can hang with a faster dog and can run with a medium speed dog without causing break downs at every turn".

Trouble is, I have never owned a perfect dog and reckon I have never seen one. I do know one thing, if the dogs could find the rabbit at the point of loss, they should never have lost it to begin with. I never run fewer than 6+ dogs. These are usually pretty quick grabbers. It is difficult to describe what makes a good dog because there are so many variables. But, a good dog will always stand out no matter where you put him. Put a good running rabbit and a good dog together and you are going to have fun. No matter what the other dogs do.

[DINGUS MAN]

[quote="deerhost"]I have seen a little of both kinds of dogs. I like them to run with good foot but I like them close and clean. I don't like them swinging and reaching too far. I don't think there is alot of skill in swinging and reaching. I think all that is is gambling for the line, Some dogs just become good gamblers but that still all it is gambling. Swingers, reaching, over running the line, leaving the check to try to pick up the line in front of the pack....Those dogs are a dime a dozen in my opinion. No offense to anyone. Thats just my opinion...DH P.S. A perfect dog to me is around 6 1/2 to 7 1/2 on speed, with a great nose that can make the turns and can hang on to a twisting turning cottontail and can gear up or down, That type of dog can hang with a faster dog and can run with a medium speed dog without causing break downs at every turn.[/quote


There is no perfect dogs but there are dogs with only a few faults. Great post! I agree totally!

[barryc]

Deerhost,

That is a good post and I agree with ya. I also just wanted to add that I enjoy a really fast dog that will swing a bit when pressured on days the rabbits leave a lot of scent and the tracking is excellent, the trouble with that is I live in Michigan and the tracking is not excellent for the majority of the 365 days that we have every year so I prefer them a notch or two slower with line control and some brains and I find that my races are much smoother and best of all they last longer because they don't horse race enough to completely lose the bunny all the time (some folks call that a "hole") but I can tell when they blow it up.

[hookset]

The problem I've seen with nearly every "line control" dog I've seen is that they never run a hot track. They sound good, and are fine background music, but they are almost exclusively cold-trailing. They may bark alot and sound good, but they're never hitting a hot track save the few seconds after they jump one out of a setup. If you're out rabbit hunting, the rabbit usually comes out of nowhere because you weren't ready for it and the dogs come through 10 minutes later "cold-trailing". I've also seen these same dogs be what I consider 'mouthy'. They don't seem to have nearly as many checks because they never shut up, but the checks are there. Again, this is good for listening from the tailgate, but not good in the woods.

Just like everyone else, I have my opinions. When I hear my dogs turn towards me, I get my gun ready because the rabbit won't be far ahead of them. If they stop barking, I know they've lost the scent, or the rabbit because they're smart enought to shut up when they do. I feel they are truly "running to catch", something that is really an impossible task for a line-control hound that never causes a check.

[DEA]

Fellas
b This is a great topic, But imo you are all missing one very important FACT. Depending on what part of the country you are from. I have ran from southern ky to the northern part of mi up. I believe there is a big differance in what you all are seeing as rough gamblers and tight line control.
I run LP, PP,and some spo. I run the same dogs in every format. And I believe a good dog can do any. At least here in MI the speeds are about the same. PP is a little cleaner but just as fast. LP is a little rougher but the same speed. And SPO is somewhere in between.
Check work is very important. CLOSE check work is just as much of a gamble as reaching for the check. some days it will work some days it will not.
Now with that being said, a good check dog is usually the one that created the check in the first place. therefore he BETTER be good at picking it back up. I prefer a good clean run with very few checks and very few break downs. If he is creating the check, I dont care how good he is at picking it back up. I BELIEVE that he is the problem and he is the one that is getting picked up and going to the truck. Screwing up the race will not be tollerated.
But as stated before we are all going to run what we like to run, wether it be winning a trial or putting food on the tailgate.

Shoot Straight
DEA

[hookset]

CLOSE check work is just as much of a gamble as reaching for the check. some days it will work some days it will not.

That's problably the most profound statement on this subject I've ever heard.

[wireman252]

I like a mid west SPO style of dog.Or at least the kind that I feel they try to promote. Good foot(run to catch) with some accuracy. I prefer a dog that can SNAP back to the point of loss and quickly work it looking to advance the track. Neither wildly nor conservatively, but quickly and with purpose. I believe most of the judges in this circuit would not allow a cutting/swinging/gambling style of dog to stay in the pack long. That is why I like this format. They must recover the track with some accuracy. A dog that swings or cuts , surely "wants" the front , and maybe able to handle it until the next point of loss. But dogs are also judged on check work, and if he didn't "work" the check then how can he get check score ? No matter how good a dog is , or what style he is, he will have to work a check at some point in a race. I think most non- trialers (not all) that just like to hunt or run dogs for fun , would rather a dog just keep moving the rabbit no matter how he does it. Regardless of what style of dog we agree or disagree to like, we all like to hear them driving on a track.

[DINGUS MAN]

The problem I've seen with nearly every "line control" dog I've seen is that they never run a hot track. They sound good, and are fine background music, but they are almost exclusively cold-trailing. They may bark alot and sound good, but they're never hitting a hot track save the few seconds after they jump one out of a setup. If you're out rabbit hunting, the rabbit usually comes out of nowhere because you weren't ready for it and the dogs come through 10 minutes later "cold-trailing". I've also seen these same dogs be what I consider 'mouthy'. They don't seem to have nearly as many checks because they never shut up, but the checks are there. Again, this is good for listening from the tailgate, but not good in the woods.

Just like everyone else, I have my opinions. When I hear my dogs turn towards me, I get my gun ready because the rabbit won't be far ahead of them. If they stop barking, I know they've lost the scent, or the rabbit because they're smart enought to shut up when they do. I feel they are truly "running to catch", something that is really an impossible task for a line-control hound that never causes a check.

You have must have never seen strong med. speed dogs with ability, run a rabbit. Our dogs in our next of the woods are nothing like that as a matter of fact Ive never seen anything like that other than culls that know one in there right mind keeps. What you are describing is dogs that walk all the time no matter what. That is NOT what a true strong med. speed line control pack or dog does. Our pack with my running buddies dogs have caught rabbits before by puttin steady pressure on the rabbit. They are never 10 min behind they are usually on a few mins. behind because of running the track and not just searching for track where they over ran the thing by a half a football field. Mouthy, ...Well a true hound has a honest mouth and is not barking out of place. Thats any hound any format. Just saying

[bluemouse]

I believe it was dale that said terrian has a lot to do with how a dog searches a track. running on dry ground i would want a hound to check close to the lost. With a dog running a web footed rabbit that likes to swim you better have one with enough brains to reach or the rabbit will never be found. I have seen rabbits swim down a skidder rut with just his nose out of the water then leap over the other rud and swim back pass the dogs going in the opposite direction. So if the rabbit gets far enough ahead for a lost you need a dog with enough brians to reach. I have seen rabbits dive into canals and swim 50to 60 yards and come out on the opposite bank, talk about a nightmare for any hound. All is not equal in rabbit hunting but feeding a good dog cost the same as feeding a sorry one.

[deerhost]

I don't own a perfect dog. What I described is what a perfect dog would be to me. And the style of dog I like. Thats also is the kind of dog I strive for. Hookset I think your confused as to what I'm talking about, You sound like your talking about 6 1/2 to 7 1/2 down south type UBGA speed dogs, that peter along and bark alot on track and can't commit to leave the check area. I'm talking about north east type 6 1/2 to 7 1/2 speed. These dogs are pretty fast and don't bark 13 times on every rabbit track. Also the statment about a close dog creating just as many checks as a swinging dog?? I just have to scratch my head!