Butkus fans!!?

[mdbeagler]

dose anyone else have a full 15 inch hound out of him?

I have a male out of him that is a full 15 inch hound.
This male isn't slow at all, he is out of Kemlers Snow run Tasha and Greenbay Shooter.

[Casey Harner]

Something else that may be worth considering. With a dog like Shooter, (Big snow nose/Line control) you get as many if not more hunters breeding to him than field trialers. I know some hunters that bred to Shooter with NO intentions of ever attending a trial.

When you have a faster trial dog that makes a name as top stud more trial guys breed to them rather than rabbit hunters.

I enjoy attending field trials, but is the FC title the only factor that determines a great producer? I wont try to debate which dogs are great producers and which ones are not. I will say I think a great producer consistently passes on his "halmark traits" to his offspring with a variety of different females. I would argue that Shooter has passed on line control and big nose to many different litters. If you desire those traits above others, Shooter is a great produce. If speed and drive top your list of traits then Shooter might not rank so high for you.

Mybeagles

If you want hunt, drive, and speed with control and big snow nose thrown in, then Shooter is the stud for you.

I have been very fortunate enough to have ran with Adam Seger and Shooter. These are the crosses I have seen.

I have seen tons of crosses out of Shooter
X Striker, Shooter X Haunted Hills, Shooter X
Lake Omegnaw Casey, Shooter X Paycheck, Shooter X Larsen.


These were different bitches bred to him that I have got too see. They had plenty of foot, tons of nose, brains, line control, and check power w/drive.

[Dr. Chris]

Dr. Chris I am just curious where you obtained this information or are you just making an educated guess? Shooter has been bred to 43 different bitches, some females were bred more than once. I know there are about 8 champions out of 1 bitch that was bred to him 2 or 3 times. You might want to check the numbers as far as him only reproducing a handful of champions. Joe has a handful of champions out of Shooter alone. I don't think he would be in the top reproducing sire list if he was only reproducing a handful of champions, but I guess it depends on how big the hand is that's being gauged.

as far as reproducing chris shooter is the number 3 all time reproducer according to akc magizine number 3 off all time ahead off just about all them dogs you mentioned

In just simply responding to the above comments, I received my inquiry back from the American Kennel Club today on Green Bay Shooter.

According to the Official AKC Records, as of 5/23/2011 Green Bay Shooter:

Is the Sire of 56 AKC Registered Litters
Is the Sire of 391 Pups {Not all of the Puppy Papers were sent in on some litters, so there may be more}
Is the Sire of 12 AKC Field Champions

Concerning the magazine “deeming” Shooter as the 3rd all time reproducer? They had no idea what I was talking about. They said they have never made such a claim. They told me that it is possible that one of the writers for the magazine in one of his stories may have “predicted” that Shooter may end up a top producer someday, but with his actual producing numbers and percentages, though Shooter may be a great dog and comes from great dogs, he himself does not have the numbers to even be in the conversation with the “all time greats”.

Shooter is a good dog and has produced a few good dogs, but for people to pump him and others up to the status of being “legendary” and “in the record books” and put him up there with the “all time greats” over just producing 12 Champions out of 391 pups in 56 litters, is misleading people and simply going too far.

Beagling can get expensive real fast, and over the years I have seen many dogs “promoted” to being the next best thing since sliced bread. A great percentage of beaglers listen to this and purchase pups, breed to studs and rearrange their whole breeding programs on the false message that gets preached about certain dogs. Yes, they need to go see them for themselves, but they exercise a little thing called “trust”, and they hope their fellow beaglers would be “honest”. The truth is and the simple facts are, by sure numbers and percentages, Green Bay Shooter is not a good reproducer. He is not even near the top 100 with his numbers and he won’t be in any record books. What is also true? Many people have wasted a lot of money and have been “taken” by a misconception of a reputation of a dog, not just Shooter, but many of the “studs” that are out there.

[mybeagles]

Dr. Chris,

Thanks for clearing up all the Numbers. Don't think anyone will dispute any of that.


NOW, how many of you that own dogs out of Shooter would like to sell them? With 400 of them out there, certainly there must be some real nice 2-3 year olds for sale at a fair price.......Is it just hype that nobody wants to sell their Shooter dogs......Or could it be that the Field Champion title is a little over rated for the average beagler?

The "Adult dogs for sale" thread tells me more about the studs than the puffed up adds the stud owners post.

Mybeagles

[Dr. Chris]

Again, I think Shooter is a fine hound, and I know he has produced some nice dogs. But when people start throwing around claims and words such as “legendary”, “record books”, “top sires of all time” or other comparisons, then we are talking about a whole other subject that as of now, as good as Shooter may be, he definitely is not in their class. I am not knocking Shooter, but just looking at reality.

I do believe that the “Field Champion” status is overplayed and used as a sales pitch, more than a celebration and statement of an accomplishment. And when money gets involved, everything is overdramatized.

It is all about “presentation”, and just how well the owner of some studs can convince you of just what you’re missing out on. Also, if an owner is fortunate enough to get a field champion, he can go in many different directions. Some use them to better the breed and others use them to thicken their wallet. You plainly see this by what bitches are permitted to breed to their stud.

I also believe the only thing that sets apart many gun hunter’s dogs from “field champions”, is the simple fact that they have not been trialed, because some are better than the dogs that are being trialed. My point is, some people will pass up to breed to a “great” dog that is just used for gun hunting, but will break their bank to breed to a average “good” dog that has a field champion status and will travel many miles to buy his pups.

But I have seen a lot of Shooter pups for sale on here and on other boards, here is an ad of a “true believer” of the Butkus, Shooter and Ranger Dan lines combined with Reggie: http://www.beaglesforsaleonline.com/det ... teid=68880

[R.Ooten (RUFF)]

Im sure everyone would agree that Dingus Macrae a 2005 Better Beagling HOF inductee, was a top reproducer
I have found he only produced 12 FC's out of 58 litters. Now that diden't come from AKC I got my info from
http://www.beaglepedigree.com but im sure it's not off by much if any... I have 2 out of Shooter and have owned
4 more pups out of him all out of diffrent females and I can tell you every single one of them made rabbit dogs
and Shooter put his mark on everyone of them. And just for the record my kennel is built around Dingus. and
Adam is not a friend that Im trying to take up for his dog. I just know what I see out of pups I have owned and
have seen run out of him.

I would think with Shooter being only 10 or 11 and he got bred alot in 2009 and 2010 there will be a bunch more FC's
sired by Shooter.

and by the way Im a Butkus Fan too

[mybeagles]

Can anyone tell a person who the great producers are?

I know of some Big named studs that you couldn't give me a pup from. In my 25 years of beagling, the Ranger Dan line of hounds impresses me more than any other. Maybe when Im your age Dr. Chris I will look at it differently?

I cant get a pup out of Mt Zion Pete or Adirondack Bobby, so I guess Im stuck with the best available today. Going to give Trails a shot this week.......Im certainly not in beagles for the money, just ask my wife. I do however think its great to be able to try all the different stud dogs available. Not everyone that breeds to the flavor of the month is in it for money. I'm giving the pups I dont keep to my friends. If all the "famous linebreeders/inbreeders" of the day were so successful, the outcrossers would never win a hunt.......we all know thats not true.

Breed what you like and if you have great results, that hound will be a great producer in your eyes no matter what anyone else thinks!

Mybeagles

[hard on a check]

DR. CHRIS:
According to the Official AKC Records, as of 5/23/2011 Green Bay Shooter:

Is the Sire of 56 AKC Registered Litters
Is the Sire of 391 Pups {Not all of the Puppy Papers were sent in on some litters, so there may be more}
Is the Sire of 12 AKC Field Champions

I appreciate the official numbers/percentages,i think "ALL" stud dogs should have their official numbers/percentages listed,then beaglers could make their own judgement based on fact an not on hype,just my opinion,thanks.

[Casey Harner]

There are tons more out of Shooter. Shooter X Big Spring. One of those crosses produced 8 FC's out of the litter....

[Dr. Chris]

Im sure everyone would agree that Dingus Macrae a 2005 Better Beagling HOF inductee, was a top reproducer I have found he only produced 12 FC's out of 58 litters. Now that diden't come from AKC I got my info from http://www.beaglepedigree.com but im sure it's not off by much if any...

Dingus I know produced over 40 champions. BeaglePedigree.com is a great resource. For the most part they are very accurate. They don’t give wrong information, but not all breedings are on there and not all of the pups are included in many of the breedings that are on there. For example, They only have Green Bay Shooter having 18 litters when he actually has 56. But they include what they have and what others donate. But it is a great site and a wealth of information and what they do have is verified thru the AKC and is accurate.

As far as Dingus Macrae, he is in the Hall of Fame along with Able’s East Coast Trimmer, Adirondack Bobby, Mt. Zion Pete, Birch Haven Bruiser, Larmay Toastmaster, Mountaineer King, Branko’s Jack of All Trades, Champlain Bucky, Straight Arrow, Mountaineer Sonny, Round Pond Mr. T because they were actually the producers that many are looking for today. Some want it so bad, they talk themselves and others into believing something that just isn’t so.

Somewhere I have an article where it talks of Dingus and at that time he had broke the 40 mark of champions produced, like most of the above studs did. And Dingus also produced multiple champions in the same litter on several occasions. I have an article about Gray’s Linesman and he had already produced 53 champions and he was still being run and was still being bred. Ranger Dan I believe produced 20 champions in his first 30 breedings. There are dogs by the dozens that have produced 10 to 12 champions, as I said before, several females have produced that many in their limited breedings.

Brad-Ju's Bella Donna produced a field champion or two with every "different" stud she was bred to. Pine Acres Mollie was bred to Dan two times and produced 6 champions, and my favorite from back in the 70’s, Sugar River Sweet Magnolia was bred 6 times {that I know of} and produced 13 field champions.

But things were different then, not so much in dogs, but in breeders. If a man from New York had a top stud, and a man from Indiana had a top Bitch, they would get together breed their dogs and split the litter and create something special. Not very many will do that now, because then you have to share the credit. So now when you do get a pup from a top stud, most of the time it is out of just an “average” bitch, and then you hope for the best.

There are tons more out of Shooter. Shooter X Big Spring. One of those crosses produced 8 FC's out of the litter....

Not in the AKC, if you’re counting ARHA, UKC or something else… but as far as AKC Field Champions he has produced exactly 12, according to AKC.

[hard on a check]

Dr.Chris: Could you list the top 10 producers of all time,as far as (litters vs fc's) by the official akc numbers?

[Casey Harner]

Chris,


Can you name all 12?


Does AKC keep up with the recent FC's out of Studs?

[BCBeagles]

This has become a very good thread!!! Thanks Harner. This may clear up some ???'s. Time is on Shooter's side as many of his pups are still young(2 or less). He is a VERY good reproducer for sure!!!

Butkus has the hound power and pedigree to do just the same, if not surpass, time will tell. Butkus has some TOP females coming to him both AKC and UKC. I talked to another knowledgable gentleman on Friday who personally watched Butkus, he said " He will make you like him!" proof is in seeing with your own eyes. He then bred his top shelf Reggie bitch to him because he liked what he saw. If Butkus can reproduce on a pretty good basis him traits he will do okay for himself, I am sure of that.

Oh by the way Timmy O'grady, as soon as I get back from vacation you are bringing that little powerhouse down to my house and we are cutting him loose!!

[Casey Harner]

This has become a very good thread!!! Thanks Harner. This may clear up some ???'s. Time is on Shooter's side as many of his pups are still young(2 or less). He is a VERY good reproducer for sure!!!

Butkus has the hound power and pedigree to do just the same, if not surpass, time will tell. Butkus has some TOP females coming to him both AKC and UKC. I talked to another knowledgable gentleman on Friday who personally watched Butkus, he said " He will make you like him!" proof is in seeing with your own eyes. He then bred his top shelf Reggie bitch to him because he liked what he saw. If Butkus can reproduce on a pretty good basis him traits he will do okay for himself, I am sure of that.

Oh by the way Timmy O'grady, as soon as I get back from vacation you are bringing that little powerhouse down to my house and we are cutting him loose!!

Your welcome!

[Dr. Chris]

Dr.Chris: Could you list the top 10 producers of all time,as far as (litters vs fc's) by the official akc numbers?

I can’t name the top 10, it will take a while for the exact numbers, but I can find out. I will try my best, but there may be some on the list that most really don’t care about because a lot of them are from the Brace era. I will try to get a “top 10” that is semi relevant to the style that most like on here. But I would guess you could look to the Hall of Fame for most of them. Ranger Dan I know would be there along with Linesman and a few others already named. George Nixon had too many to count, but some I would consider valid {the early ones}, but the later ones were brace. In the 50’s Pearson Creek were hard hunting and pretty fast gun dogs, but by the 70’s they were Traditional Brace {walkie talkie}. They carried the same name on their pedigrees, but they were as different as night and day.

What would be really helpful is if every stud dog ad included some basic information.

Number of litters sired
Number of Pups sired
Produced, known field champions and dogs that are placing
Trial record, including number of dogs at the trial {big difference in a dog running and placing against 8 dogs, opposed to dogs running and placing while going against 58 dogs}
Known information about their Sire, Dam and littermates.

But most of the time it is the same old hype about it being the perfect dog that is the total package with no faults. Every dog has both strengths and weaknesses. It would be helpful to know the real true info on any stud to truly match up and compliment your female correctly.