Butkus fans!!?

[Dr. Chris]

out side of paw king which other hound out of butkus has done anything?
i have talked to a man that had 4 bitches out of him and all the bitches were out of different bitches.

he told me that all of them were the biggest deer hounds he had ever owned he said he has shocked them, beat them, used the barrel with deer hide in it. he said he would cut them lose and they would get on a deer trail and run them till they jumped a deer. he said they would be gone for 5 days


i like the greenbay stuff but but my guess is butkuts will never be the reproducer that shooter is. i think the hottest shooter cross out there is out of shoreacers shakers dinha

I believe it is simply because of the people that have seen both Butkus and Shooter run, like Butkus better. And the people that have had both Butkus pups and Shooter pups, like Butkus pups better.

Butkus is still young and producing field champions and many on the verge of making champion. Shooter has been bred well over 100 times and only has produced a handful of champions compared to how many times he has been bred, not very good averages at all, if you intend to compare Shooter to other great reproducing males.

Shooter was Better Beagling’s Top Sire "one time" in 2009 with 20 dogs placing. Ranger Dan won the same award 6 times with 42, 37, 35, 27, 27 and when he was older and on his way out he did it again with 18. Striker did it with 37, Maravic’s Blue Ninja did it 2 times with 35 & 27. Branko’s Ali Baba did it 3 times with 39, 37 and 23. And many of these dogs placing out of these other males went on and finished. How many have actually “finished” out of Shooter ( 9 or 10 ? ), compared to the multiple times he has been bred. Shooter may be a good dog and produced a few good dogs, but you can’t hardly begin to compare him to the great all time reproducers. http://betterbeagling.com/competition/t ... -and-dams/

But as far as Butkus and Shooter are concerned, this is the way it is supposed to be, a bloodline getting better with every generation, so it stands to reason and makes sense that Butkus would be better than Shooter. And in the end, I believe Butkus will Sire more champions in the long run, he still has years to go.

[chapkosbeagles]

dr chris i believe that shooter is in the top 5 all time reproducers in akc better beagling magizine but you say he is not one of the best reproducers of all time

as far as butkut pups i not hearing any hype up this way about his pups paw king is the only one i have herd about

[deerhost]

I'm sorry but Shooter from what I've seen in the last few years has been breed to alot of SH%T. People just taking any old crappy, middle of the road bitch and breed to him thinking they may get some nice dogs. yes alot have not turned out but I think because everyone and anyone with any old bitch tried breeding to him. The females is at least have the equation. I also think most people posting have never seen either Shooter or Butkus run or dogs out of them. I know I've been told by some very reputable beaglers that on some days Butkus looked really good and on other days he looked really bad. About Shooter I have heard over and over, The best hound hands down that some have ever seen run a rabbit.....Just my two cents.

[Joeyman]

i have never seen shooter run. but i have a puppy out of him. I've never been around this bloodline only heard and read about it here on this board. So I figured I'd give it a try. If it don't work out down the road it goes. Won't bother me none.

[BCBeagles]

I have not seen Shooter in person, but have seen several off of him run and raised a litter off of him myself. The one I kept did not have the speed I like and that was why she left. Others I have liked very well. I ran with her littermate sister an she could smoke a rabbit! The male off of my litter was lost and not recovered. I owned one other male that was started when I sold him and I probably did not give him enough of a chance he is making a nice one, he was a little shy, IMO, and this is not something I like.

I, personally, like the pedigree of Butkus more than shooter for the Wiley speed involved, but to each his own. I agree with Deerhost wholeheartedly about the sub par females to Shooter and he still reproduced some nice hounds off of them! That is producing power. We have to remember Shooter is 10 and Butkus is 4 and time will tell if Butkus will even be close to his daddy. I know I will get to see Butkus run in person and I will be breeding some females to him as his reputation speaks loudly to me. It doesn't hurt that his new owner is a friend of mine and was here at my place today looking at my Butkus pup, Frankie.

I will tell you this. I have raised a few puppies and this pup off of Butkus is the most athletic and bold pup I have ever had. He is super nice! I am excited about his chances to be something nice! Time will tell. Shooter is a legend in his own right. Butkus is showing he can reproduce some real nice ones early on with 7 placing at that trial recently 5 being littermates. That is real impressive if you as me!

[Casey Harner]

I'm sorry but Shooter from what I've seen in the last few years has been breed to alot of SH%T. People just taking any old crappy, middle of the road bitch and breed to him thinking they may get some nice dogs. yes alot have not turned out but I think because everyone and anyone with any old bitch tried breeding to him. The females is at least have the equation. I also think most people posting have never seen either Shooter or Butkus run or dogs out of them. I know I've been told by some very reputable beaglers that on some days Butkus looked really good and on other days he looked really bad. About Shooter I have heard over and over, The best hound hands down that some have ever seen run a rabbit.....Just my two cents.

Agreed, have seen Shooter run three times... All three impressive!! Ran with 15 inch hounds as well!!!

[Joeyman]

i had a butkus pup at my house for a couple days (helping a friend out) He had a ton of energy and played like a little kid. Very bold and friendly little guy. I liked him!

[Dr. Chris]

dr chris i believe that shooter is in the top 5 all time reproducers in akc better beagling magizine but you say he is not one of the best reproducers of all time

as far as butkut pups i not hearing any hype up this way about his pups paw king is the only one i have herd about

Don’t misunderstand me, I believe Shooter is a fine hound. I was able to see him one time at a trial that he won. I thought he did excellent. Was he the best dog I ever seen run a rabbit? Absolutely not. But then again I have vivid memories of field trialing since I was a young teenager in the early 1950’s and got a chance to see some great ones run.

Better Beagling has been doing the Top Sire List since 1979, so any dogs before that have been excluded. But I can tell you by sure numbers, Shooter would not even be close to making the top 50 list. The dog has only produced around 10 champions out of how many breedings?

When we start talking about all time reproducers, we are talking about dogs like Able’s East Coast Trimmer, Adirondack Bobby, Dingus Macrae, Mt. Zion Pete, Birch Haven Bruiser, Larmay Toastmaster, Mountaineer King, Branko’s Jack of All Trades, Champlain Bucky, Straight Arrow, Mountaineer Sonny, Round Pond Mr. T, Branko’s Ali Baba, Maravic’s Blue Ninja, Trakarab’s Pacesetter, The Elm's Jigs Maggies Mate, Melanson’s Ranger Dan and a whole host of other dogs that have all produced 25, 30, 40 or more champions and some of them with limited breeding. This does not include dogs from other associations, formats and organizations, nor does it include other dogs before 1979 in the US or Canada.

Shooter is a fine dog and has produced some good dogs, such as Butkus. But to label him as “legendary” or to even begin to compare him to the “all time greats” is a bit much and a huge exaggeration. There are females that have produced more champions then Shooter.

And as a note; many are breeding to Butkus because of his mother, who many onlookers and judges state that she was indeed the best female they have ever seen run a rabbit and she has produced with other males besides Shooter, and like it or not, the bitch line is half of the results of any breeding and Shooter really has not had the opportunity to be bred to very many quality females over the last few years.

[mdbeagler]

out side of paw king which other hound out of butkus has done anything?
i have talked to a man that had 4 bitches out of him and all the bitches were out of different bitches.

he told me that all of them were the biggest deer hounds he had ever owned he said he has shocked them, beat them, used the barrel with deer hide in it. he said he would cut them lose and they would get on a deer trail and run them till they jumped a deer. he said they would be gone for 5 days


i like the greenbay stuff but but my guess is butkuts will never be the reproducer that shooter is. i think the hottest shooter cross out there is out of shoreacers shakers dinha

I believe it is simply because of the people that have seen both Butkus and Shooter run, like Butkus better. And the people that have had both Butkus pups and Shooter pups, like Butkus pups better.

Butkus is still young and producing field champions and many on the verge of making champion. Shooter has been bred well over 100 times and only has produced a handful of champions compared to how many times he has been bred, not very good averages at all, if you intend to compare Shooter to other great reproducing males.

Shooter was Better Beagling’s Top Sire "one time" in 2009 with 20 dogs placing. Ranger Dan won the same award 6 times with 42, 37, 35, 27, 27 and when he was older and on his way out he did it again with 18. Striker did it with 37, Maravic’s Blue Ninja did it 2 times with 35 & 27. Branko’s Ali Baba did it 3 times with 39, 37 and 23. And many of these dogs placing out of these other males went on and finished. How many have actually “finished” out of Shooter ( 9 or 10 ? ), compared to the multiple times he has been bred. Shooter may be a good dog and produced a few good dogs, but you can’t hardly begin to compare him to the great all time reproducers. http://betterbeagling.com/competition/t ... -and-dams/

But as far as Butkus and Shooter are concerned, this is the way it is supposed to be, a bloodline getting better with every generation, so it stands to reason and makes sense that Butkus would be better than Shooter. And in the end, I believe Butkus will Sire more champions in the long run, he still has years to go.

Dr. Chris I am just curious where you obtained this information or are you just making an educated guess?
Shooter has been bred to 43 different bitches, some females were bred more than once. I know there
are about 8 champions out of 1 bitch that was bred to him 2 or 3 times. You might want to check the numbers as far
as him only reproducing a handful of champions. Joe has a handful of champions out of Shooter alone. I don't think
he would be in the top reproducing sire list if he was only reproducing a handful of champions, but I guess it depends
on how big the hand is that's being gauged. From what I have heard Butkus has days when he looks good, and others
not so good. I do not know because I have never seen him run. I was told that dogs out of Butkus do like deer, and that
it comes from his dam. A lot of these dogs are run in pens and not run in the wild very often so they are not tested on
trash to often. I have watched Shooter run in the wild, and he did an excellent job. What other dogs do you know besides
paw king that Butkus has reproduced, to be compared to Shooter? How many have seen paw king run in the wild to be able to make and honest assessment of him? Watching a dog run in a few trials in a pen does not give an honest assessment of if the dog is trashy or not or easy of breaking.

[Dr. Chris]

[Dr. Chris I am just curious where you obtained this information or are you just making an educated guess?
Shooter has been bred to 43 different bitches, some females were bred more than once. I know there
are about 8 champions out of 1 bitch that was bred to him 2 or 3 times. You might want to check the numbers as far
as him only reproducing a handful of champions. Joe has a handful of champions out of Shooter alone. I don't think
he would be in the top reproducing sire list if he was only reproducing a handful of champions, but I guess it depends
on how big the hand is that's being gauged. From what I have heard Butkus has days when he looks good, and others
not so good. I do not know because I have never seen him run. I was told that dogs out of Butkus do like deer, and that
it comes from his dam. A lot of these dogs are run in pens and not run in the wild very often so they are not tested on
trash to often. I have watched Shooter run in the wild, and he did an excellent job. What other dogs do you know besides
paw king that Butkus has reproduced, to be compared to Shooter? How many have seen paw king run in the wild to be able to make and honest assessment of him? Watching a dog run in a few trials in a pen does not give an honest assessment of if the dog is trashy or not or easy of breaking.

Well my numbers come from friends that trial and judge, what I read in magazines and simply word of mouth through conversations. I do not have an “official report” from the AKC if that’s what you’re talking about… but I guess I could order one, it just costs $20.00.

From what I can just recollect by memory there is; Green Bay Butkus, Glacier Ridge Renegade, Green Bay Big Booty Judy, Snow Rub Buel, Green Bay Holly Hunter, Green Bay Moxy Foxy, Snow Run Rita, Green Bay Nemasket Singer, Whitney Creek Captain Jack, Green Bay Holly Hunter and I am not sure but Green Bay Jifka may be a champion also. Counting Jifka the number would be 11, but I know of 10 for sure. Please add the ones that I missed or don’t know of.

Shooter was Top Sire of the Year because he deserved it. He had 20 hounds that placed at least once in a trial that particular year, and that was the most of any other hound for that year, which are the requirements to win that award. But that does not mean they all finished out as champions. This past year he had 16 that placed in a trial at least once which was second to Reggie. Those two years alone he had 36 dogs that placed in a trial at least once, one would think some of those would go on to finish as champion, and maybe they did, fill in the blanks if you can.

As far as Shooter only being bred 43 times? He has been breeding since 2002/2003, which would mean he has only been bred around 5 times a year. I simply don’t believe that, more than 5 people have bred to him on this board alone on an average in the past 3 years. I think you may be closer if you were to more than double that number. But even if you were correct, 43 litters are still around 250 pups.

I have never heard of the deer issues concerning Butkus, which is new to me. But you are going to get some of that in every line. I know Butkus does not run deer and out of the 6 pups out of Butkus that I have seen for myself, I have never seen it.

I have only been told of greatness and praises concerning Wiley, and that she complimented Shooter well because of her speed, drive and hunt, which were the areas that Shooter needed enhanced, and that Shooter complimented her well because of his nose and line, he could run a rabbit like he was tied to it.

As far as Butkus producing more than just Paw King, Butkus is just 3 years old, he won’t be four until the middle of this June. He has up to six or seven years of breeding left, only time will tell but people sure do love what he has produced so far.

My point is, Shooter is a very nice dog no doubt about it, but is he to be considered as one of the all time greats? Absolutely not.

[mybeagles]

Something else that may be worth considering. With a dog like Shooter, (Big snow nose/Line control) you get as many if not more hunters breeding to him than field trialers. I know some hunters that bred to Shooter with NO intentions of ever attending a trial.

When you have a faster trial dog that makes a name as top stud more trial guys breed to them rather than rabbit hunters.

I enjoy attending field trials, but is the FC title the only factor that determines a great producer? I wont try to debate which dogs are great producers and which ones are not. I will say I think a great producer consistently passes on his "halmark traits" to his offspring with a variety of different females. I would argue that Shooter has passed on line control and big nose to many different litters. If you desire those traits above others, Shooter is a great produce. If speed and drive top your list of traits then Shooter might not rank so high for you.

Mybeagles

[BCBeagles]

Everyone keeps talking about the studs running, Shooter very consistant and I am reading here Butkus good at times and bad at times. I care about there running style, don't get me wrong, but I care more about production in the pups and there running style. Is that not what proves a stud???? Again 10 versus 4 in age. You CAN NOT compare yet!!! Let Butkus breed some top bitches and lets have this converstion 3 years from now. I have heard that Shooter competed against Top Gun tyke and NEVER beat him?? This came from a legitimate source. Why does it matter which one would out do the other in other than the stud pen?? I would bet that you could run Shooter versus Butkus and they would both give each other all they wanted. I personally, have not heard ANYONE say they saw inconsistancies in Butkus and I have talked to a few folks who have seen him run in person.

Let talk again in 3-4 years and see what the opinions are then? Every hound has a "hole" and so do there offspring. If you like it, you like it plain and simple.

[chapkosbeagles]

dr chris i got pick of the litter on the second cross of the dinha and shooter cross. this has been the best shooter cross. my dog is a full 15 inch and has more speed than any other shooter dog i have seen. i have olny put him in 2 trials and he has one win.

as far as reproducing chris shooter is the number 3 all time reproducer according to akc magizine number 3 off all time ahead off just about all them dogs you mentioned


i would be happy to show you a shooter dog that is 15 inches and faster than all his LITTLE brothers and sisters regardless of titles. if i take him to the trials there is no dought shooter would have another field champion under his belt

buell also had rita who has a first place in just 2 trials two if she was being trialed there would be another. shooter is a great reproducer and if you take a top bitch to him he will reproduce. just think about all the guys who have good dogs that dont trial.

the best one might have never even seen a trial alot of these dogs go to gun hunters

dose anyone else have a full 15 inch hound out of him?

[Mapel Valley Kennels LLC.]

dr chris i believe that shooter is in the top 5 all time reproducers in akc better beagling magizine but you say he is not one of the best reproducers of all time

as far as butkut pups i not hearing any hype up this way about his pups paw king is the only one i have herd about

Don’t misunderstand me, I believe Shooter is a fine hound. I was able to see him one time at a trial that he won. I thought he did excellent. Was he the best dog I ever seen run a rabbit? Absolutely not. But then again I have vivid memories of field trialing since I was a young teenager in the early 1950’s and got a chance to see some great ones run.

Better Beagling has been doing the Top Sire List since 1979, so any dogs before that have been excluded. But I can tell you by sure numbers, Shooter would not even be close to making the top 50 list. The dog has only produced around 10 champions out of how many breedings?

When we start talking about all time reproducers, we are talking about dogs like Able’s East Coast Trimmer, Adirondack Bobby, Dingus Macrae, Mt. Zion Pete, Birch Haven Bruiser, Larmay Toastmaster, Mountaineer King, Branko’s Jack of All Trades, Champlain Bucky, Straight Arrow, Mountaineer Sonny, Round Pond Mr. T, Branko’s Ali Baba, Maravic’s Blue Ninja, Trakarab’s Pacesetter, The Elm's Jigs Maggies Mate, Melanson’s Ranger Dan and a whole host of other dogs that have all produced 25, 30, 40 or more champions and some of them with limited breeding. This does not include dogs from other associations, formats and organizations, nor does it include other dogs before 1979 in the US or Canada.

Shooter is a fine dog and has produced some good dogs, such as Butkus. But to label him as “legendary” or to even begin to compare him to the “all time greats” is a bit much and a huge exaggeration. There are females that have produced more champions then Shooter.

And as a note; many are breeding to Butkus because of his mother, who many onlookers and judges state that she was indeed the best female they have ever seen run a rabbit and she has produced with other males besides Shooter, and like it or not, the bitch line is half of the results of any breeding and Shooter really has not had the opportunity to be bred to very many quality females over the last few years.

Too many think Studs walk on water.Better pay attention to them bitches as i have yet to see a stud overcome a lack luster bitch. It also seems everytime a studs OFFSPRING POP UP THERE WILL BE NAYSAYERS.

[BCBeagles]

I know of a near 15" inch Shooter male, he isn't slow and I am breeding to him for Shooter and for his dam's pedigree. Shooter is a great reproducer and he will be in the record books for a long, long time. If the same quality bitches come to Butkus or any stud for that matter. That is what will make us talk about them!!! Just like we are now with Butkus.
Mr. Abshires post is correct the quality of the females to a stud is his rise and fall be it top females and not the top on females. Breed to what you like and breed the BEST females you can to any stud and take your chances you will have some success. I hope to that now as I have had a small amount of success so far for my hounds and hope to have some more!
Run and breed to what you like!!