Controversial post number 2

[Guest]

I often hear the term "bettering the breed"used.What is bettering the breed?Is it even possible?I see folks that are hellbent on "bettering the breed" but they are going in the opposite direction of others who are hellbent on bettering the breed.My problem with this phrase is that it is hard to quantify or measure if you are in fact bettering the breed.My own thought is that the best you can do is breed what suits you and be tickled to death if someone else likes it too.What do you think?

J.Murphy/Murphy's Kennel

[Big Dog]

The betterment of the breed is in the eye of the person that is making the cross. Ubgf SPO guys will tell you that the faster dogs are crazy and can't run a rabbit, while the the Little Pack, Midwest SPO, and UKC folks will tell you they wouldn't own a dog that was content with just slotting up behind it's pack mates and took all day to circle a rabbit. With that being said there are some obvious differences of opinion that would never allow us to have a 100% or even close to 100% consensus on what it takes to better the breed. I know folks that hate cold trailing and I know some that like it.(hard to believe I know) I had a ubgf guy that had a finished FC tell me that he did now own one dog that had any hunt, but they could run the fire out of a rabbit after it got up. I told him my dogs had a lot of hunt and I didn't have to jump rabbits and he responded by asking me how far they over ran, and saying that anything over 2 dogs length was too far. I had to laugh and we agreed to disagree. All we can do is the best we can to breed a good all around dog that we can consistenly kill rabbits in front of. If it doesn't hunt, or can't run a line then it is not bettering the breed. Brace trialers probably think that they are bettering the breed also, and they definitely aren't. So as the saying goes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Feed what you like and like what you feed.


Big Dog

[Plow]

I think the only rule to apply to this one is the hope you can produce dogs that are a better all around rabbit hounds than the generation before. I don't think anyone can better the breed so to speak because we all like something a little different, what I think is better someone else thinks is not as good. So it would be more correct to say better my breeding or my kennel. Course there are a lot of people a whole smarter than me that may be bettering the whole breed & I just ain't seen it yet. It seems funny whenever anyone wants to get into a line of dogs they look for the ones closest bred to the originals, or the oldest line etc. If we are bettering the breed wouldn't it make sense to look for the futherest down the line from the originals because they have improved with each generation haven't they? As many people that have bettered the breed they have to be better, don't they? surely no one breeds for money it's all for bettering the breed!

[Guest]

We are all looking for ELITE dogs. Lets face it if you get one it is luck. It may come out of the best you own it may come from an accidental breeding. You will only have one best dog your whole life. SHOULD WE BREED THE BEST TO BEST...SURE!!!! Should we try to make an ELITE dog..YES, BUT what ever you are doing to get an ELITE dog it is still luck!!!!! Elite dogs will be few and far between no matter how hard we try, but we keep trying.

I dont care if a dog is fast or medium speed if they are ELITE they are fun to watch no matter how you put it.

[MasonsBeagles]

Glad you posted the question J. I would have to agree that the best we can do as owners breeders is breed or strive for the traits we like and hope someone appreciates them.

[Randy H]

I think to better the breed,first you need to get wit other beaglers that will give a hound a chance,So many guys think if a hound isnt running and winning at a young age they give up on the hound. Very few guys that i know will be patient with a hound they give up,and blame the breed they never look at what they should have done.To own a good one starts with you and just how much time your willing to put into the hound.

[DRamey]

Instead of "bettering the breed" maybe we should use the term "bettering the bloodline." J hit the nail on the head when he said to get the best you can to suit you and hope that someone else likes it, but look at what Big Dog added. There are absolute truths in the world, but not in the realm of personal likes and dislikes. If every breeder responsibly breeds to better his own bloodline to suit him, then others will come looking for it. It's the "Field of Dreams" thing. If you build it, they will come. The problem we have as beaglers is that we take our work on the breed in general a little too personally. Big Dog said a huge mouthful of wisdom when he said that he and another beagler agreed to disagree. Agreeing to disagree is not a slap in your face as a breeder. Too many are on an ego trip with their hounds and that leads to bad attitudes at the trials, on this board, and among peers. Our major difference is in amount of hunt, line control, and speed. Raise, breed and handle what suits you and give the guy down the road your blessing. By the way, does anyone have any experience breeding a straight line control, methodical hound with a pure LP style hound?

[Lynn Perkins]

Wouldn't bettering the breed be more of an opinion of what we eack like?I make a cross on what i like and hope the plan falls as planned.If it suites others thats great but when mated it was for my style and likes.
How can everyone that raises a litter be bettering the breed?with so many styles and formats.Would we be more in agreement if we said maybe we are trying to better the line or we are just plain simply put "bettering what we are feeding" i like the latter,yes with each breeding i try to bring more into what i have,hopefully strenghting what I am feeding more each time but who's to say the first person to see them run might think i went backwards.So i don't think i'll take on the world task of bettering the breed but yet try very hard to better what i got and hopefully each generation i raise after that will get stronger,more steady and i'll have rabbit dogs to last me till my time is up and if what i raise pleases others then thats just icing on the cake.

[doggin]

I believe when the term "bettering the breed" was coined there were only two formats for trialing beagles,brace and large pack.There were a number of breeders who ran and placed the same dogs in both formats.Then the term bettering the breed meant just that because everyones idea of a good dog was essentially the same.Today there are multiple formats for trialing, each with it's own idea of a good beagle so "bettering the breed" has multiple connotations. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[eric sampson]

Bettering the breed could also be considered more consistent hounds with fewer culls. I am relatively new to serious beagling and I would be happy with a kennel full of top notch dogs with few faults. Right now I have mediocre dogs that I still am having fun with and I enjoy hearing them run. Maybe more importantly, they are providing me the opportunity to spend many hours with my four daughters listening to them run while we talk about important stuff, you know, stuff like why chocolate ice cream is better than vanilla. Stuff like explaining what my Grandma and Grandpa were like. Stuff like telling them about shooting my first deer. I realize I am off the topic but sometimes we lose sight of what is important. By the way, when someone does figure out a sure way to produce top notch, ELITE dogs gauranteed I am looking for two good females.

[Southern Beagles]

What bettering the breed means to me is breeding out (or not breeding at all) known genetic faults with conformation as well as physical health issues like hernia's and seizures, ext to produce a healthy, sound, well built hound. Bowed legs, cow hocks, poor shoulders, pigeon breasts ext, are all faults of the running gear. The running gear is what carries our hound into the field day in and day out. Breeding a hound with these faults is NOT bettering the breed, but just passing on faults to future generations. YES, I have seen some outstanding hounds with these faults but those faults should stop at that dog. Breeding him is not bettering the breed. Breeding him is just making more dogs with these faults. A well built hound that can run a rabbit is the total package. Too many hunters and trialers are willing to forsake conformation as long as that dog has talent in the field. The same can be said for the Show folks that the majority has never even set foot in the field and couldn't run a hot biscuit. There are folks out there that are breeding for both.

[Guest]

....................Continued

As far as style, I believe a hound that works good in one area (like the southern Briar patches) may not be the same "style" needed to drive the rabbits out in the open plains. There is nothing wrong with either types but one will suit an area or hunter better than the other.
I know two fellows that each had a cull. They both knew the other liked a different style hound. They gave it a shot and traded culls. Both are happy with the other mans dog. Neither are considered culls in the other mans kennel.

[Boomer]

I'm with Southern Beagles. There are going to be disagreements in field judging, the show ring, and among beaglers themselves about what is "better," but there's no dispute that weeding out health problems makes the breed better. We're lucky to have a relatively healthy breed to begin with. There are other breeds for which people will settle for some health problems just because they're not the worst problems the breed can have!

[TC]

What bettering the breed means to me is breeding out (or not breeding at all) known genetic faults with conformation as well as physical health issues like hernia's and seizures, ext to produce a healthy, sound, well built hound. Bowed legs, cow hocks, poor shoulders, pigeon breasts ext, are all faults of the running gear. The running gear is what carries our hound into the field day in and day out. Breeding a hound with these faults is NOT bettering the breed, but just passing on faults to future generations. YES, I have seen some outstanding hounds with these faults but those faults should stop at that dog. Breeding him is not bettering the breed. Breeding him is just making more dogs with these faults. A well built hound that can run a rabbit is the total package. Too many hunters and trialers are willing to forsake conformation as long as that dog has talent in the field. The same can be said for the Show folks that the majority has never even set foot in the field and couldn't run a hot biscuit. There are folks out there that are breeding for both.

I Agree Totally with What Southern says above and would like to add to it
I see it from both sides the show and the Hunting The hunter not caring about the conformation of their hounds as long as they can run a rabbit! And the Show folks carrying the fancy too far!!! Breeding as to what may be popular that year or last year, with the Judges. Not caring if the Dogs may have trouble Running all day or Whelping pups because they have bred the back out of the hound going for that shorter stockier look!! And adding to what was said in an earlier post about a hound not being able to run in the open plains vs. the southern Briars If a hound Is bred right they should be able to do both show and hunt in the plains or the swamps or the briars so this is what I feel is bettering the breed to try to breed to the true standards as they were written! Look back at some of your older hounds they weren’t stocky built, they didn’t have snippy noses, or pigeon breasts crooked legs or broke down backs, I know some lines that you caint get a dog past 5 to 8 years old that can still run!! Or don’t have medical problems seizures epilepsy chondradistrophy (sp) Dwarfism ECT. Or some of the Show lines that look great but have lost allot of what they are there for. Living their lives in crates except for show days
!!!

A well built hound that can run a rabbit is the total package.

[tnbeagleman]

Y'all not going like this, but I'm guilty to!! Throw away the shock collars and star breeding the best dogs!!! Not the one's broke from bad habits but the ones that just don't have them. OUCH!!!