jump dogs in field trials.

[Mapel Valley Kennels LLC.]

Ohiontr
Read pg 40 par 8l and interpret it for us does this not give credit more for style of hunt over accomplishment

[Ohiohntr]

fulcount - "also states a dog will be judged on hunt if they dont hunt or interfere with a hound that is trying to hunt"

...that is a pretty loose interpretation of this part of the rule book

pg39 Bottom

"Hounds must be scored on searching ability. Hounds that fail to search for game or interfere with other hounds that are searching for game must be ordered up by the judges."

fulcount - "No credit is given to a dog that starts the most game"

...Again, that is a pretty loose interpretation of rule 8l

I see kind of see where you are getting that but in no way, shape, or form, interpret that rule as you are...I see it as talking about evaluating the "total performance". A sentence in that rule also says "Ability and desire to hunt are of first importance." Here is my interpretation....If two dogs perform the same on the tracking and hunt, then the hound that found the most game could be my deciding factor. I also interpret it as AKC telling the judges that the number of jumps does not conststitue a dog having the total package and it should not be evaluated soley on number of jumps....I value a jumpdog but he has to run it too.

Just for everyones info....the first sentence in rule 8l we are discussing (interpreting for good conversation) is..."The number of times a hound finds game shall not necessarily give it the preference, but the quality of the performance shall be given first consideration"....Now to me the key words are "not necessarily"....but it could. If I am out hunting a jumpdog is necessary...however if the dog stands there and watches it run away and comes back and sits by my feet, what good is he? The Total Package is what I am looking for when judging....because that is what the rule book says and that is what I want to hunt over. Jumping ability and hunt is all part of this package and I merrit it highly....but the hound has to do more than just jump it to do well in AKC SPO.

I judge based on this rule....best rule in the book and sums AKC Midwest up pretty well
pg40 8k

"Judges are to consider that the Beagle is primarily a hunting hound and that its object is first to find game and second to drive it in an energetic and decisive manner and show an animated desire to overtake it"

[TC]

"Judges are to consider that the Beagle is primarily a hunting hound and that its object is first to find game and second to drive it in an energetic and decisive manner and show an animated desire to overtake it"

[deerhost]

DJC, Your wrong about the size of classes. The last few trials I've been to. One which was in Monroe beagle club in PA which had a class of bettween 40 and 30 little bitches, and the last was Neversink in NY last weekend I believe had 29. Look thrue the pages of Better Beagling mag and you will see trial results with classes of anywere from mid 20's to mid 30's in little bitch class, with the exception of little males which tends to draw small classes.The average maybe mid twenty's. With a class of 28, the first series will run 4 packs of seven dogs , The second series may run at least 2 packs of 7 and then the winners pack. Thats 7 packs, if each pack is down bettween 1 to 2 hours that can mean anywhere from a 7-14 hour trial, and thats only if there is ample game. The trials I have been to usually after the first few packs are out and the day progresses into late morning or into noon the harder it is to find game. You maybe out there for a half our before you get a rabbit up, then judges have to get a look at the hounds in order to judge and most are not familier with the running ground so as they run to try and get a look at what is going on with the pack it may take some time. At Monroe the trial didn't end tel 9 PM. And at Neversink last weekend the trial started at 8am and finished at 5PM and that was only because they had lots of game including some hare that do not hole and would stay up above ground ..DH

[DJC]

Deerhost what I said was "In the northeast SPO trials you are hard to find a class that draws more then 25 the days of 40 dog classes are pretty much behind us yes there maybe an exception here or there."[/i] if this is the game then 13"females last fall at Broome was 11 and Klipnockie was 9 and this year big males at Pine hill was 9 and I think East Hampton had 15. I think under 25 on a regular basis or on an average is pretty accurate. I would bet there are far more trials where enteries per each class are under 25 then there are over. Regardless I think the idea that dogs shouldn't be made to jump there own rabbit because there isn't enough time is a pretty sad excuse. If I go hunting and my dog doesn't jump a rabbit then I go home without running a rabbit, it seems simple, SPO is for "gun hunters" right? so there dogs shouldn't need much help to jump a rabbit. Try a UKC or ARHA trial, they have there faults as well but hunt and jumping rabbits is rewarded more fairly and the dogs do it on there own.

[Mapel Valley Kennels LLC.]

fulcount - "also states a dog will be judged on hunt if they dont hunt or interfere with a hound that is trying to hunt"

...that is a pretty loose interpretation of this part of the rule book

pg39 Bottom

"Hounds must be scored on searching ability. Hounds that fail to search for game or interfere with other hounds that are searching for game must be ordered up by the judges."

fulcount - "No credit is given to a dog that starts the most game"

...Again, that is a pretty loose interpretation of rule 8l

I see kind of see where you are getting that but in no way, shape, or form, interpret that rule as you are...I see it as talking about evaluating the "total performance". A sentence in that rule also says "Ability and desire to hunt are of first importance." Here is my interpretation....If two dogs perform the same on the tracking and hunt, then the hound that found the most game could be my deciding factor. I also interpret it as AKC telling the judges that the number of jumps does not conststitue a dog having the total package and it should not be evaluated soley on number of jumps....I value a jumpdog but he has to run it too.

Just for everyones info....the first sentence in rule 8l we are discussing (interpreting for good conversation) is..."The number of times a hound finds game shall not necessarily give it the preference, but the quality of the performance shall be given first consideration"....Now to me the key words are "not necessarily"....but it could. If I am out hunting a jumpdog is necessary...however if the dog stands there and watches it run away and comes back and sits by my feet, what good is he? The Total Package is what I am looking for when judging....because that is what the rule book says and that is what I want to hunt over. Jumping ability and hunt is all part of this package and I merrit it highly....but the hound has to do more than just jump it to do well in AKC SPO.

I judge based on this rule....best rule in the book and sums AKC Midwest up pretty well
pg40 8k

"Judges are to consider that the Beagle is primarily a hunting hound and that its object is first to find game and second to drive it in an energetic and decisive manner and show an animated desire to overtake it"

Just asking Kelly have you ever seen the Total Package since Judging.

[Ohiohntr]

If you are asking about the one that sticks in my mind and always will...it was a 13" female at Borderline's AKC SPO on hare...completely dominated on hunt, line control, drive, plus several times (burned in my brain) walked out marked lines for several yards without any other dogs saying a word...hard to say on jumping ability because it was on hare in a pen but I have no doubt she would be an awesome cottontail jumpdog as well. She ran the hare like the AKC book was written while she was running. Now, having said that...I have seen the glimpses of what I consider to be the complete package and I have seen dogs stay clean with no minuses throughout an entire trial but she is the only one that comes to mind to being close to what I consider perfect in every department for the hours I got to see her run and it sucks that I only got to see her go one time. I think she went on to win something like 5 out of the 6 trials she was ever in and all had 25+ entries so I must not have been the only one who thought so.

I'm sure there are others if I sat back and thought about it....however, she is one I will always remember and use to judge the "total package" against. I think at the end of winners pack I had 30 or so merits on her and around 10 on my 2nd place dog. The other judge had close to the same thing....

I would say every judge has that "special one" he remembers judging....that would be a good thread to start, if I was into starting threads

[THALL]

I judge AKC. If they stand around, they got to the truck under me. I anouce before every cast "your dog will be judged on hunt."

[Greg Wells]

I've got a dog that would do well in trials that score big points for the jump. He's not full beagle, but he looks like one( part rat terrier) so he would be eligible since dogs don't have to be AKC registered in these hunts. He's like a radar in jumping rabbits! I think it's because his ears set real high on his head. He busts them right out of thier bed, barks about 3 times & then comes back to me. Future Champion !!
I'd rather compete in trials that promote purebred beagles though like AKC where the majority of the score comes from the actual rabbit chase. I just love to hear the hound music, watch the dogs work the check area & sound off when they find a loss & hear the rest of the pack hark in. In my opinion, when you have 7 dogs working a thicket, it's hard to tell which dog actually made the rabbit bust out of his bed. It seems there could be some luck if a dog that didn't even jump the rabbit gets a line or sight chase that another dog actually spooked it up; and that dog gets strike, jump or whatever for being in the right spot at the right time. When I judged AKC Mid-West, I made sure the hounds had adequate hunt & if I actually saw a hound jump a rabbit from it's bed, it would get score, but if it had major faults when the rabbit was being ran such as backtracking, swinging, barking through a check, ghost trailing , reaching wide in the check area, overrunning, quiting, running mute, standing in the check, etc., I still had the option of eliminating the dog. In a scoring system like in other formats, that dog may win it's cast even though it could be the faultiest dog in the entire trial. So basically, as a hunter & trialer, I realize the importance of hunt in a hound, but there are so many more variables to consider when judging a hound's overall performance , I find it impossible to accuratley award the best hounds by merely using a point system when judging. Again, this is my opinion on judging beagles; not trying to offend anyone, but I have seen some great hounds over the last 20 years that could do it all & do it right. The most impressive hounds that I've seen are the ones that can do everything right & also have the ability to stay with a long check & save the rabbit chase with it's high level of desire & brains. In other formats from what I hear, hounds don't get a chance to do this because after a certain amount of time goes by in a loss, they call "dead track" or something & move on and try to find another rabbit. I can't understand the thinking behind this rule. Oh well, to each his own; Happy Hunting & Trialing to all !!