Red Flag or just getting better?? UKC Nationals

[mybeagles]

In my experience with UKC and NKC, you have to have the dog that fits the format. There is a rigid scoring system and sometimes a dog with less experience and ability does better because their style fits the format closer.

IMO the thing that makes AKC a good format is the way its judged. IMO the thing that makes AKC a bad format is the way its judges. My point being, if you have good honest and able judges, AKC is great. If not, its miserable. Most of the judges Ive seen in AKC were honest, unfortunately there are far too many that are not able or wont put forth the effort to get around enough to see what they need to see to be effective. In the midwest, judging is not for a guy 50lbs over weight and in poor physical condition. Your going to run your guts out in brush for 6+ hours.

In AKC you can get beat by the judges, in UKC or NKC you can be beat by the scoring system. None of the formats are perfect. I usually have a good time at any of them, but I don't take it as serious as some. If your happy with the dogs you have, does the judges opinion matter that much?

There are MANY red flags in all the formats. You either alter the dogs you keep to fit a given format, or you live with the red flags. If there were 180 dogs in the open class, It's hard for me to believe the top 10 were not excellent dogs regardless of their age. Some of those 1 year olds that placed will be the Grand Champions that guys will be breeding to in a couple years. Then I guess it will be a green flag.......

Mybeagles

[barryc]

For all those who replied red flag!

Next year why don't you show up to the Nationals and watch the Final Four of the Registered class then reply with an honest answer based on facts. I did and they were all tough hounds, honest mouthed, good noses, fast on the line, clean and in rock hard shape.

[DJC]

Red Flag.

I guess my question is how do these hounds run when they are 3, 4, or 5. Often when you put pressure on a young hound they pickup bad habbits that stay with them forever. I am often reluctant to run a young hound in hunts or trials until they have reached maturity, I see some people run dogs in hunts and the dogs are only 13 or 14 months old, in many cases I feel this is like the 10 year old using Daddy's gun, yes he can shoot it but he must use improper form to compensate for his size and strength and often times the kid never gets correct form even as an adult. The AKC says a dog can't be offically measured until they are 18 months old, therefore they are saying a dog is continuing to grow until atleast 18 months, if a dog is still growing they have not reached maturity.

Yes there are exceptions, and as always what one person accepts in a hound another person will not tolerate. But in my experience I have seen far more hounds ruined by putting too much pressure on them when too young then damaged by waiting till they are mature to enter them in trials or hunts. I always figure I have a long time to figure out how to mess up a good dog why do it when they are still puppies.

[Bev]

In AKC trials their biggest concern of separation is the height -- 13" and 15", not so much gender as a separator. If they don't have enough entries in some trials they will combine them (by size regardless of gender). If you will notice, they run one gender one day, and the next gender the next day. This is done primarily so females that are in season can still compete -- which is important when AKC clubs are limited to 2 licensed trials per year. I can't think of an AKC beagler anywhere who would hesitate to put their females down with the males as far as ability and/or endurance. If anything they might get a little embarrassed at the females out-hunting the males on the front end, but... (lol).

[Dr. Chris]

Dr. Chris, It still takes 120 points to make an AKC FC. If you think they are easy to get just try it. If there are fewer number it really makes it tougher to finish a little male. It takes more wins and a lot more miles of travel to get it done. I own one of the best 13" females I have ever seen run. I have seen plenty in my day. Anyone who know dogs and has seen her run will agree. Could she have competed with males, yes. Can most females, yes but not over all day trial. That is the difference over an 8 hour trial, the male strength will wear a female down. You can argue that but it will happen. As for 1 year old dog being in the finals of the nationals. I am sorry but no way. That is way this format is successful. It allows UKC to make money hand over foot and fool people into thinking 1 year old dogs are that good. Run them all day. You can argue all you want, come and run an Large Pack or SPO trial. Yes I have seen young dogs place but lets be realistic.

If you breed to a dog because it is a FC that might be the "RED FLAG". You breed to improve your kennel and better the "breed". This is what ruins the sport. Instead of people understanding how to improve their pups by matching traits, they breed to the flavor of the month or breed to their favorite blood not matter what the outcome will be. It takes two to tangle and the best I remember most good breeders say it is at least 60% the bitch. I don't own a male, so don't think I am defending one. I just think this is funny!!!!

Yes I know, it takes 3 first places and 120 points. 1 point to the winner of first place for each dog entered, 1⁄2 point to second place, 1⁄3 point to the third place and 1⁄4 point to the fourth place. My first Field Champion was in 1959.

But as you said, let’s be realistic. Yes it takes more time, more money and more entries, but as far as it being the easiest for the dog to champion out as far as competiveness, the AKC 13” male class is the way to go.

You just need 6 dogs in your class to be eligible and win 1st place 3 times. That would give you your 3 first places and 18 points. You then place 1 thru 4 enough times to accumulate the other 100 or so points.

You state UKC is fooling people… I wouldn't be too hard on the UKC, but who is fooling who, in the AKC it is possible to have all 3 of your 1st places with only going thru less than 20 dogs. Then slowly accumulate points. Now thats funny! But when you finally do get those points, out comes the red ink and that FC status along with advertisements in beagle magazines to allure people that don’t know any better, and multiple people are breeding to a “Field Champion”. I do agree with you on that point, because if you breed to a dog simply because it is a “field champion”, that is a huge red flag.

Do you really believe that a dog that is in a trial of 65 to 85 dogs and has to go thru multiple casts and judges and wins the hunt, lacks credibility compared to the dog that has to beat 6 to 15 dogs? Simply because it takes more time, money, entries and patience from the owner of the hound because of the way the system is set up?

As far as running males with females and the females wearing down? That is totally false. That is scientifically and medically wrong. In humans, the difference is relevant physiological dimorphism in both species and there is about a 10% difference between a man and a woman of heart size, blood volume, oxygen consumption, and hemoglobin concentration. This is not so with animals. At the most there may be a 1% or less difference, not factoring in adding the skills of running a rabbit at the same time of physical movement. Males do not have an advantage in short or long runs. This is why they will race male and female horses against each other and why both male and female greyhounds are always raced against each other, with millions of dollars at stake. This is just a “tradition” that AKC chooses to keep and the fact that there are 4 winners at every trial. Again, making trials easier to win is good for business.

And I am sure you have a great female. My “red flag” is not with the dogs, it is with the system.

[mybeagles]

My “red flag” is not with the dogs, it is with the system.

............


It would be interesting to see if AKC combined the males and females which one would have more champions. My guess is that 13" would have more females and 15" would have more males because of the #'s.

Does UKC or NKC publish the amount of males vs females that make Grand Champion?

I have always felt the males were better at speed, drive, endurance and females were better hunt, check, handling dogs.....I base that on running large pack on hare with the northern michigan guys and 20 or so dogs in a mixed pack.

Mybeagles

[jdmart]

Dr. Chris run a male for 5 days in a row and run a female for 5 days in a row the same distance and see who is ready to go the next day! The male. Heart size has nothing to do with pure muscle strength and power. I have ran dogs almost every day for the last eight years. I missed 10 days last year. Nobody gives a crap, I know. But, I know what a dog is capable of. I am capable of making my own observations. I have been beagling for 35 years. Look I am not going to argue with you and don't care when you finished your first beagle. But, males will outlast a female when you run them as hard and long as they can take it. I am not talking about 1 hour casts. 5 hours a day for several days in a row, a male will stand up to it longer than a female. You might not think so immediately but you will find out down the road. The female body structure will wear down faster, joints etc. How may KY derby entries are female versus male????? 95% can't run with the big boys!!!! facts. How many have ever won???? The last winner was in 1988. Everybody has an opinion and I respect yours, doesn't mean I agree.

The 13" male class is the easiest class to finish a dog in because of the competition I will agree.

[LaMarr Rhoades]

i have alot of friends that run this format and i know they have nice dogs but im sorry theres no way a good 1 year old should be able to beat a 4 year old good dog.matter of fact thats just crazy to even think that they should be able to in my oppinion.not a good stat at all for ukc

[Bev]

jdmart, there's little running that equals running fox on rocky ground for 7 - 8 hours of straight pounding several times per week for training, and then 4 - 6 hours at the trial. Gender seems to play no favorites. In fact, the year I started trialing beagles on fox, the 2 dogs in contention for Hound of the Year were GBFC Roy's Falcon and GBFC Happyrun Zeet -- both 15" females. I don't know if I can get on that train that males will always outlast females when put to the test if they both get the same conditioning. If the females are bred once or twice per year, then that naturally takes them out of the gym for a portion of the year. Otherwise... *shrugs*

[swing]

Yellow Flag

[Dr. Chris]

Dr. Chris run a male for 5 days in a row and run a female for 5 days in a row the same distance and see who is ready to go the next day! The male. Heart size has nothing to do with pure muscle strength and power. I have ran dogs almost every day for the last eight years. I missed 10 days last year. Nobody gives a crap, I know. But, I know what a dog is capable of. I am capable of making my own observations. I have been beagling for 35 years. Look I am not going to argue with you and don't care when you finished your first beagle. But, males will outlast a female when you run them as hard and long as they can take it. I am not talking about 1 hour casts. 5 hours a day for several days in a row, a male will stand up to it longer than a female. You might not think so immediately but you will find out down the road. The female body structure will wear down faster, joints etc. How may KY derby entries are female versus male????? 95% can't run with the big boys!!!! facts. How many have ever won???? The last winner was in 1988. Everybody has an opinion and I respect yours, doesn't mean I agree.

The 13" male class is the easiest class to finish a dog in because of the competition I will agree.

I understand what you’re saying, and I respect your opinion. Don’t forget, there was a Philly that won the Belmont Stakes in 2007 and a Philly that won the Preakness Stakes in 2009. And a Philly took second only to Big Brown in the Kentucky Derby in 2008, and her owners knowingly ran her while she was injured. Many Phillys have placed in the top 10 over the years. And injures to Phillys are not any more frequent or often than to any other horse.

But what I am saying, it is just a simple biological fact that there is no physical difference between a male and female dog. As far as humans go, bone structure and density, muscle tone, joint structure, heart size, blood volume, size of lungs, oxygen consumption, and hemoglobin concentration are indeed what separates a man from a woman and a man being more physically sound than a woman, along with different sexual organs. With canines this is not the case. The only difference is the difference in sexual organs which separate them from males and females, everything else is depended on the physiological dimorphism within the particular breed or animal. And with the beagle, biologically and scientifically there is no difference.

Take 8 littermates out {4 males & 4 females} and run them as hard and long as you want. The scenario won’t be that the 4 females will be too tired to go the next day and the 4 males will be waiting at the gate with bells on. That’s not the way it works.

It would be interesting to see if AKC combined the males and females which one would have more champions. My guess is that 13" would have more females and 15" would have more males because of the #'s.

Does UKC or NKC publish the amount of males vs females that make Grand Champion?

I have always felt the males were better at speed, drive, endurance and females were better hunt, check, handling dogs.....I base that on running large pack on hare with the northern michigan guys and 20 or so dogs in a mixed pack.

Mybeagles

I agree about the females simply because of numbers. The biggest reason you don’t see more females dominating is the fact of their heat cycles and if they are “that good”, most often times they are bred until they can’t breed no more and because of that they don’t stay in the greatest of running conditions. It’s not because males are superior.

[thornie]

My female finished 6th at the Nationals. She is just over two. She just needs a few points to finish in UKC Performance Pack and another first in ARHA Progressive Pack to finish into a Champion. I've spent a lot of hours of keeping her in shape and getting her ready. As soon as she finish's the other two, I will be running AKC. I run 3 to 4 hours every day, If you want to come and run with her, your welcome anytime.

[barryc]

Dr. Chris, It still takes 120 points to make an AKC FC. If you think they are easy to get just try it. If there are fewer number it really makes it tougher to finish a little male. It takes more wins and a lot more miles of travel to get it done. I own one of the best 13" females I have ever seen run. I have seen plenty in my day. Anyone who know dogs and has seen her run will agree. Could she have competed with males, yes. Can most females, yes but not over all day trial. That is the difference over an 8 hour trial, the male strength will wear a female down. You can argue that but it will happen. As for 1 year old dog being in the finals of the nationals. I am sorry but no way. That is way this format is successful. It allows UKC to make money hand over foot and fool people into thinking 1 year old dogs are that good. Run them all day. You can argue all you want, come and run an Large Pack or SPO trial. Yes I have seen young dogs place but lets be realistic.

If you breed to a dog because it is a FC that might be the "RED FLAG". You breed to improve your kennel and better the "breed". This is what ruins the sport. Instead of people understanding how to improve their pups by matching traits, they breed to the flavor of the month or breed to their favorite blood not matter what the outcome will be. It takes two to tangle and the best I remember most good breeders say it is at least 60% the bitch. I don't own a male, so don't think I am defending one. I just think this is funny!!!!

jdmart,

Here you are preaching that AKC is so much harder and that a 1 year old should not make it into the finals yet:

Green Bay Paw King was how old when he made FC and WON the AKC Large Pack Nationals last November . Just over 1 year old and he beat a few 3 & 4 year olds according to my records to do it so I don't want to hear it.

[deadeyebeagle]

anybody can pic out a freak thing to conflict. but consistently is a fact and 50% is not good. you will not consistently have one year old dogs winning in akc not even close.

[LaMarr Rhoades]

agreed deadeye