is there to much paper breeding

[joe kaschak]

this dog was a producer. then i had a mediocre hound with a good ped and thats the one they would always pick to breed to and he never produced anything.

The female has just as much to do with traits as the stud, if not more so. The females may not have been compatible with the "grade stud" either. Without breeding both studs to the same female and comparing litters one will never know. That being said, papers show lineage only. Yes, they may state this one or that one was a field champ, but papers allow for research on the ancestors to help determine such things as propensity for certain illnesses, or desire to achieve(as in pursuing game), etc.

Compare this to filling out an application for medical insurance. You may be asked, for example, "Is there a history of heart attacks in your family history"? "Is there a history of diabetes in your family"? The reason for these and other similar questions is to determine your potential risk factor. A history of an illness does not mean you will have it, but rather your potential of getting it. By studying your "pedigree" (family history), a "risk factor" can be assigned. Breeders do the same thing (or should) although without all the expert help that insurance companies have at their disposal.

So, in summation , while papers don't run a rabbit, they can help to determine the best crosses to achieve success in that endeavor.

[BCBeagles]

It is all a shot in the dark as to your expectations. Breed 2 good hounds papered or not and you can get a couple decent hounds maybe one very good one. What is a good litter?? Whether they are paper bred or plastic bred, MANY folks have different interpretations of what "good" is in these hounds. Breed whatever the heck you like and be happy with the results or be pi#@ed for that matter. Just have fun with your hounds and lets all just get along!!

Like or leave it I know some who paper breed and consistantly produce a good to very good hound in just about every litter they have. What is good to very good?? All in what you like I guess. I have also seen the two nicest hounds someone has access to bred and not produce a gun dog worth a bullet, who knows and has this plan all figured out cause I need him or her as my consultant!!!! LOL

[Dave Swiger]

If you want to talk about paper breeding ...just look at the BROOD gyps for sale. At no time on any of these boards as far as puppy sales go, does the breeder state the mom is a brood gyp...that is played down. As my line at the bottom goes" I breed rabbit dogs to rabbit dogs, to get rabbit dogs.

Dave

[warddog]

I certainly do not consider myself a breeder in any way but have raised some litters over my years of following the hounds when my pack needs younger legs. I consider papers to be merely a tool in the breeding process and if I don't have a decent dog, papered or not they will not be bred. When I do have a female that I feel worthy of having a littler out o,f then I try to match up the qualities and the use of papers can be a great tool for finding matches from a lot of dogs that I may never have the opportunity to actually see go. Looking at papers is more than looking at the IFC's or FC's in the dog's pedigree BUT rather looking at what these have produced as far as off spring. I totally understand that there are numerous hounds out their with titles that are counterfit and I have seen it numerous times when competition hunting coon hounds and not having been involved with beagle trialing I can only say that I imagine it to be the same. Competition is competition regardless of the breed so I suspect there are counterfits in everything battling for a title. This is why it is of the utmost importance that trialers keep themselves in check with these titles as there are alot us us out there trying to make crosses to better what we have but do not have the opportunity to see alot of the various dogs in action. I as an occasional breeder put my faith in those of you in the game of competition to assure me that you are truely putting titles on dogs worthy of doing what they were bred to do, the best. What I can do is to observe the lineage and then try to make a calculated guess from that as well as the titled off spring they have produced. If I consistantly see titled dogs from the same lineage then it is my opinion that I have done nothing more than stacked the odds a little more in my favor making a cross with those that match up to what I have. When two animals are bred it is a game of Roulette as you spin the gene pool from the female one way and the marble of the male in the oppisite direction. Round and round they go and where they are gonna stop nobody knows. There are NO guarantees that the gene pool will line up to your liking but if the pool is stacked with more of the like kinds or obvious traits the statistical chances are stacked more in your favor of getting offspring to your liking. This doesn't mean that once this is looked at you have a guarantee of anything as there are those not-so-obvious or even unnoticed bad traits that may line up from ancient days gone by. Lets face it, ALL dogs are grade to a certain extent as NOT a one of them were born packin a certificate of authenticity nor is their ancestry fool proof BUT what has happened since the days of registration and even more so with DNA is that we have a means of being able to track the parentage back for generations, plus the offspring which gives us an absolute gene pool for the future.

[intrepid]

Well said Ken. Next time tell us how you really feel about the subject.

[Newt]

[/quote]
Compare this to filling out an application for medical insurance. You may be asked, for example, "Is there a history of heart attacks in your family history"? "Is there a history of diabetes in your family"? The reason for these and other similar questions is to determine your potential risk factor. A history of an illness does not mean you will have it, but rather your potential of getting it. By studying your "pedigree" (family history), a "risk factor" can be assigned. Breeders do the same thing (or should) although without all the expert help that insurance companies have at their disposal.

So, in summation , while papers don't run a rabbit, they can help to determine the best crosses to achieve success in that endeavor.[/quote]

That is true but have you ever seen posts by beaglers who are giving "supplements" and running them in a certain manner to get that FC title? What does that do to the pedigree? If only the dog could talk, he probably would be honest unless the realized he was going to be culled or deleted from the breeding program.

[peytonbeagles]

First and foremost, I am nobody but my thoughts on it is first to answer the question is yes...In my opinion people are not using a pedigree in a way that is productive to beagling but rather $$$$ And has been mentioned that people look at a ped and see fc this or that not knowing the hounds. For myself and just my opinion and not meant to hurt any feelings in any way, but in a sport that one can go into as deep and with many ways to do it, I enjoy researching a pedigree and finding out as much detail about each hound in it. It amazes me at traits you can just about pinpoint to a hound, looks too, whats been produced, whats bred with what that wasn't so good of a breeding. Like I said I am a nobody but I believe with all hart that the study of lines and genetics will help anyone that wants to do right by the bloodline as a whole and increase at minimum the consistency of your breeding through some informative selection.....

[chapkosbeagles]

great post wardog
NOW ARE WE AS BEAGLERS USING PEDIGREES TO OUR ADVANTAGE IN THE SENCE THAT WE HAVE THE DOG TO GO WITH THE PEDIGREE, OR IS THERE TO MUCH BREEDING JUNK TO JUNK. JUST CAUSE HE OR SHE HAS GOOD PAPERS

LIKE HORSE TRAINERS IF THE HAD 2 COLT WITH THE SAME BREEDING AND ONE WAS BETTER THAN THE OTHER. THEY WOULD BREED TO THE BEST WITH THE PAPERS TO GO WITH IT. HENCE BREED TO THE ONE THAT HAS THE BLOOD BUT DONT SHOW ANY OF THE SAME TRAIT AS PEERFORMANCE

I AM SERIOUS ABOUT THESE QUESTIONS. I WOULD LIKE TO BE A TOP BREEDER IN THE SPORT SOME DAY. I BELIEVE IT IS GREAT TO HAVE AWESOME DOGS BUT I THINK IT IS EVEN BETTER TO HAVE DOGS THAT THOW AWESOME DOGS.

[S.R.Patch]

When I went to North Creek, I read many a little red booklets that had many names, crosses and results listed. By certain names and crosses, there was the capitol letter "P" written after certain names. I noticed that down the chain of pedigree, certain descendants from the letter "P" became more and more concentrated within the pedigree. This apparently had gone on for over some 70 years.
There seems to be no short cut, and success is not given upon wanting,...only long laborious commitment...

[Shady Grove Beagles]

Well thought out post Wardog.

[hlane]

BTT