Half Brother/Sister Cross??

[Moore Beagles]

If you want to see successful, selective breeding practices using line breeding and inbreeding techniques I would use the brace beagling crowd as the best example with beagles one could find.
You don't even have to know the bloodlines they use but we all know the traits and characteristics they've been selectively bred for and line breeding and inbreeding has played an important part in that selection.
Regardless of whether we appreciate the finished product or not I don't think anyone can deny they have been successful in their endeavor to create the style of hound they desire.
All done with proper selection thru line breeding and inbreeding......... even Mybeagles can't deny that which should put an end to this debate or at least his involvement in it

That has been my point all along! It appears to me that he wants this Half Brother /Half Sister cross for all the right reasons. He knows both dogs very well, and should be able to predict or expect what this litter should produce.

[Lone Pine Beagles]

Mo Beagler 5000,

The Patch hounds started out open marked Black/White.
In Willet's book, Wilderness Patchwork he has a few pictures of his dogs.
On page 105, there is a picture of FC Patch.
Page 111 has more pics. All open marked Black, White, tan.
It says the "white" dogs were in more demand.

When outcrossed to a "Blue Cap" stud he even got a few blueticks!

So i don't know if over time, people just preferred the L/W dogs or if the color was bred out of them?

Maybe one of our Patch brothers can answer that?

LPB

[Alabama John]

From all that inbreeding and linebreeding I see one trait all Patch hounds seem to have.

The main semilarity is the owners!

They for the most part look and think like S R Patch and Preachers kennels!!!!

[Tsa la gi]

John, thank you for the kind words as to how us men folks is lookin Me bein the handsomest of the three and I`ll let the other two decide who gets second and third. Glad the Preacher lives 5 hrs away cause he knows all that kung fu stuff an would kick my ol butt for sayin this. I do know that SR is very articulate and is very athorative on the PATCH BREED. All i know is I breed what I condider a rabbit hound to a rabbit hound and HOPE to get as good or better than what I have.

It is not a fore drawn conclusion on my part that the next litters are gonna be Good ,Great or what ever terminology any one chooses to use. Time will tell. It is very intresting to read all the replys though and even after reading all of them I am more confused than before trying to figure out which one I should take as the gospel. Sorry Preacher.

[BCBeagles]

There have been a lot of good posts on this thread. Never thought it would spark this much interest among those that have responded! I am sure there is not a set way in breeding these hounds as there are A LOT of variables that need to be present to produce a couple good hounds in each litter. We all have our opinions and that is why it is great to discuss to get feed back as to choices of the future for each and all of us. Thanks again for the thought provoking suggestions and experiences!! I have went to one of my mentor's on this and he has stated he loved a cross like this. He has been doing this for 35 plus years and it has worked out okay for him. I can only hope to maintain a few very good hounds at my kennel so I can enjoy them for seasons to come.

[NorWester1]

Ok, I wasn't trying to shift the discussion to the Patch bloodline. I posted what I did simply because I'm not aware of any traits or characteristics in that strain that would set itself apart from any other strain that is successful at hunting/running rabbits.
Which is why I thought it might not be the best example to use to extoll the virtues of inbreeding or line breeding to achieve ones breeding goals to someone who does not have first hand experience with the bloodline and was looking for evidence as to the validity of breeding closely within a family of dogs.

However, once again, we're all aware of the traits & characteristics within the strains of the brace fraternity, which is a huge testiment to what can be accomplished with the right selection and proper use of heavy inbreeding and linebreeding.
So much so that it could be argued that brace beagles aren't even the same breed anymore.

I'm sure some on here would faint, followed by beating a path straight to confession for having glanced at some of those brace pedigrees and seeing how inbred some of those brace champions are

[Mo. Beagler 5000]

My point was eventually patch hounds that were black white and tan were not in demand so it was bred out of them through line breeding most likely,


which is odd to me because i would think if it were me as a breeder I would choose qualities that make a better running dog not the color of the dog.,.. but i guess to each his own

[S.R.Patch]

My point was eventually patch hounds that were black white and tan were not in demand so it was bred out of them through line breeding most likely,
which is odd to me because i would think if it were me as a breeder I would choose qualities that make a better running dog not the color of the dog.,.. but i guess to each his own

Through what source do you draw your information and conclusion?

[rabbitsmoker]

From what ive read ther has been more sister to brother and son to mom ect.. in the patch breed then in any other i have read about i thought the first patch was red namrogs sister girl was red dont knw the color of sandy of andy

[Laneline]

I don’t come on here often so please bear with me,

If there was a perfect method to get the “perfect” beagle, we would all have them by now. Simple fact is, sometimes it works and sometimes it does not. The most “consistent” way to produce {good or bad} is line breeding. To try to strike lighting in a bottle {which many do, and it can be fun too}, Out cross the best to the best. Me personally, when I “outcross”, I do it to another family of line bred dogs that have been bred by somebody reputable for years attempting to “weed out” the faults within their line. But nothing is a “for-sure” thing.

But what some call “line breeding”, I would view it as an outcross. And for others, I may look at it and say it was crossing the line into “inbreeding”. Different people have a different perception of what line breeding and inbreeding are.

Many breeders of different breeds use a method or “scale” to make sure they do not breed too close. Coefficient Of Inbreeding or “COI” is the calculation used to determine the level of inbreeding on an individual dog. The higher the number for COI the closer the dog was line bred or inbred. A very low COI reflects that the dog was "out crossed", meaning the parents of the dog had little or no common ancestors “up close” and/or if there are common ancestors, there were outcrosses along the way within the pedigree to “water down” the effects of the line breeding or inbreeding that did take place.

The Coefficient Of Inbreeding or “COI” is measured by the following:

• Parent x Offspring = 25.00% - {Parent is 75.00% of blood}
• Full Brother x Sister = 25.00% - {Common Grandparent is 50.00% of blood}
• Father x Granddaughter = 12.50% - {Father is 62.5% of blood}
• Half-Brother x Half Sister = 12.50% - {Common Grandparent is 50.00% of blood}
• Uncle x Niece = 12.50% - {Common Grandparent is 37.5% of blood}
• First-Cousin Mating = 6.25% - {Common Great Grandparent is 25.0% of blood}

These are the numbers with these particular breedings. Keep in mind that every dog in your pedigree has a number. It may be 0.01% or 50.00% etc… and the numbers may fluctuate depending on the number of generations that you use for your COI, {it is recommended to use a 10 generation pedigree} and the number of out crosses that you may have. The total numbers of each dog in their proper order averaged out will give you the COI of your dog.

The dogs below have been done with a 10 generation pedigree. {With the help of a friend at the National Beagle Club} The COI number can change if you use less than a 10 generation, or if some dogs are missing from the pedigree. These dogs are all in the Beagle Hall of Fame within their formats and are all known for their reproducing power.

Deer Park Spike - 30.20% COI
FC Pearson Creek Stub - 18.92% COI
IFC Wilcliffe Bannister - 16.88% COI
FC Mountaineer King - 16.80% COI
FC Luci Van Little Man - 12.55% COI
FC Del-Ray Stubby - 9.80% COI
FC Wilcliffe Boogie - 9.30% COI
FC Gray’s Linesman - 9.21% COI
FC Yellow Creek Ben II - 6.30% COI
FC Shorts Banker Boogie - 4.85% COI
Chapman’s Buzz Bomb 3.95% COI
IFC J-Wall of Roxline - 3.90% COI
FC Branko’s Jack of All Trades - 3.10% COI
IFC Brad-JU’s Bella Donna - 2.10% COI
IFC Adirondack Bobby - 0.90% COI
IFC MT Zion Pete - 0.88% COI
FC Dingus MacRae - 0.84% COI
IFC Able’s East Coast Trimmer - 0.75% COI
IFC Larmay Toastmaster - 0.60% COI
IFC Birch Haven Bruiser - 0.45% COI

It is not unusual to produce an excellent quality dog from an “outcross” litter. The abundance of genetic variety can place all the right characteristics and traits in one dog. Many top winning Field Champions and Show Champions are a product of an outcross. Consequently, however, they may have low inbreeding coefficients and will lack the ability to uniformly pass on their good traits to their offspring consistently. After an outcross, breeders will want to breed back to dogs related to their original stock, to increase homozygosity and attempt to solidify the newly acquired traits from the outcross.

High COI percentages of over 20% increase the probability that genetic defects will be carried from common ancestors on both sides of the pedigree and will match up to cause the actual genetic diseases faults or defects. When you reach 30% you will see some “symptoms” start to take hold and many of these genetic disorders will eventually consume your strain.

The few dogs above that bother me, IFC Wilcliffe Bannister with a COI of 16.88% was used to produce FC Pearson Creek Stub with a COI of 18.92%. Stub was used on his own pups multiple times and then back to his own grand pups, {in the litters where he was both their grandfather and their father} this was done over and over again throughout the Pearson Creek line and it evolved into the dogs that originated the “Traditional Brace” hounds, or “Walkie-Talkie” hounds. Their “COI” sky rocketed well above the 30’s and 40’s, but they still continued to breed them together without any outcrosses. These pups generations down evolved into something that did not resemble their “beginning linage” from either side. Crossing the line too far, inbreeding {not line breeding} evolved and morphed them into a new breed, within a breed.

There is a need for “line breeding”, but there is a danger if it crosses over into “inbreeding”.

A COI of 12.5% is equivalent to a half brother x half sister mating or a grandparent to grandchild mating. This breeding is the most common practice for breeders wishing to achieve consistency in true to type or to "cement" certain traits. As a result the litter will consistently be uniform in type, temperament, health, traits and characteristics, which is the goal for anyone breeding to maintain and better the breed. This breeding {12.5%} is referred to individuals that raise horses, sheep, cattle and dogs of all breeds as the method of choice by scientists and geneticists through research in the fields of genetics, immunology, and veterinary medicine and is considered the best breeding method to achieve perfection to the highest level that the gene pool of your particular strain will allow it to be.

For those interested, I had an article about this subject published. It has been “updated” and more info added to it and is going to be published again soon in its entirety in a beagle magazine, you can view a portion of it here: http://www.lanelinebeagles.zoomshare.co ... rain_0.pdf

Note: A portion is written concerning breeding “show beagles” to “field beagles”. I discouraged it. I never state that it “can’t” be done, but it takes certain methods and great time, wisdom and culling from experienced breeders to make it work. I know of people that have had great success with it, but I discouraged it from the average everyday person from assuming he will have stellar dogs after one breeding etc.. I didn’t want to offend anybody “unintentionally”.

Oh, Jim I would make that cross btween Jake & Lilly, I know the dogs involved. Keep in touch and Take Care, Jim

[Mo. Beagler 5000]

My point was eventually patch hounds that were black white and tan were not in demand so it was bred out of them through line breeding most likely,
which is odd to me because i would think if it were me as a breeder I would choose qualities that make a better running dog not the color of the dog.,.. but i guess to each his own

Through what source do you draw your information and conclusion?

umm (information) the book entitled "the patch hounds" and about 20 internet sites that I will list if you really want me too.. Generally I look stuff up before i say it... It specifically says in the 40's and 50's the non tricolor dogs fell out of demand for the white dogs who were known for running ability.... even more specifically anything that didn't have black or tan was called patch even if it wasn't patch.... from what I read...

And my conclusion is that color doesn't run a rabbit and never will... its like saying my dog is akc so it runs better...

so if i had tricolor dog A that is tricolor but had an improvement I wanted or the lack of fault I wanted to get rid of in my line and dog b who happens to be the color i like but has no real otehr purpose of breeding it except for the color i choose dog a 100 percent of the time. Thats just me though...... my conclusion is an opinion.. maybe there are enough patch hounds that there are no faults to get rid of and that there is patch hounds that have perfect conformity and you never have to leave the line.. I never owned a patch but if i did i wouldn't breed it to another patch hound just cause the color is cool.....

[BCBeagles]

THANKS FOR THE INFORMATION JIM, NICE POST!!!!

[Tsa la gi]

Laneline,
After reading your post about coi %, With help from Hammerenpatch and his data base, following are the results of a 10 generation pedigree to the coi % of the breeding done and to be.

Pigeon Creek`s Agustau-Patch HP19138402 Dna #v60775 coi%10.958

Shantillie Lace Patched R HP22930003 coi 9.02%

Pups this litter coi 12.812% and I asume 1 st litter

Eberle`s Hammeren Patch Casey HM50799603 coi 26.62% Father to and Grand father to Sire, Dam,and pups.

Amazeing, this is calculated from 1435 dogs,

My question to you IS, what does this tell me? Did I go over? Is it close? I do not have a clue but am very willing to learn.
Thank you in advance.

[Tsa la gi]

Mo,
You are correct which I think every one will agree on,COLOR does not run a rabbit just as papers do not run a rabbit.
I dpn`t beleive any one can show me pic`s of many L/W hounds that did very well in trials and that color phase was not acceptable unless you just gun hunted,could be wrong.
In the 60`s I ran fox hounds and showed them on the bench 98% were L/W they did well in the field but never did well on the bench,Judges are color blind and if it wasn`t tri forget it. My Macbeth hound had perfect conformation as far as fox hounds and was showing him against a Blanket back tri in the Michigan state Field trial, the tri beat him out.
Later the judge came to me and said son I want yoy to know you have about as perfect a hound as you can get BUT I~M color blind,Mac would have been a dual champion.

I just prefer the L/W and always have,to each his own. Their are many hounds I have seen on here that I like mostly tri but I`ll keep what I like.

[NorWester1]

Tsa la gi, those numbers are a nice piece of trivia. Kinda like the names on the pedigree. What they won't do is tell what traits or characteristics are being selected for, and they won't tell you how the dogs will produce with any certainty, in other words ...... the future.
And they sure won't tell you if you have "rabbit dogs" as your finished product.

This is the most interesting part of Lanelines post in my opinion,

The few dogs above that bother me, IFC Wilcliffe Bannister with a COI of 16.88% was used to produce FC Pearson Creek Stub with a COI of 18.92%. Stub was used on his own pups multiple times and then back to his own grand pups, {in the litters where he was both their grandfather and their father} this was done over and over again throughout the Pearson Creek line and it evolved into the dogs that originated the “Traditional Brace” hounds, or “Walkie-Talkie” hounds. Their “COI” sky rocketed well above the 30’s and 40’s, but they still continued to breed them together without any outcrosses. These pups generations down evolved into something that did not resemble their “beginning linage” from either side. Crossing the line too far, inbreeding {not line breeding} evolved and morphed them into a new breed, within a breed.

In his opinion it is taken too far....... which isn't surprising as he's not breeding for, nor has any interest in, brace style hounds I suspect.
However it further illustrates my original point as to what can be accomplished with proper selection coupled with inbreeding and line breeding techniques.
It's actually very impressive. Make no mistake some of those guys know exactly what they are doing and this somewhat exposes the pretenders ( breeders out there slapping dogs together without any real purpose or goal in mind).

What they have done is every breeders dream..... not to have brace style dogs of course but to be so effective at breeding, producing dogs so dominant, that to the rest of the fraternity his dogs are not even the same breed and in a class all their own
Can you imagine?