BAD BITE GAYLINE

[rabbitsmoker]

In July 2008 i raised a litter pups out my gay female which was bred to a gay male had a few not all but more than usual i CULLED because of a bad bite been raising out of litter mate female Ruby and havent had a bad bite yet does this just happen are is it inherited one out of the 2008 litter i sold to my hunting buddy which we didnt knw at the time was worse than i have ever seen he CULLED her to just cant stand it myself want even own one JMO Dont care how good they are

[Gunslinger Beagles]

all i have seen is the old gay line and the more newer stuff and in those ive never seen any with a bad bite. a freind of mine has been breeding gay line for as long as i can remember and never seen it. that is not to say it want happen just never seen it in my circle of friends and beaglers.

[bill huttozac]

Rabbitsmoker - As you know, I presently own two litter mate females to your dog Ruby. Neither of which have "bad bites", in addition, I have litters of pups from both these females which are now 4 months old and none have abnormal bites. I must also assume that Ruby's bite is normal. I am at a loss as to the female that you said has the bad bite since only three females and one male was registered with AKC from that litter.
Bad bites, crooked legs, dwarfism, roach back, lack of brains, lack of hunt, weak mouths, poor conformation and a multitude of other defects are inherited through accesteral lines carrying recessive genes for a particular defect.
A good place for you to start your search for which line (or both lines) that donated the recessive gene would be with Mr Robin Steelman who is the Breeder on the bottom half of your Ruby's pedigree. I do not believe you will find the answer there as Robin would have culled such a dog from his kennel and not bred the Sire and Dam again.
The top half of Ruby's ped being White Pine Gay D-Man. You could contact D-Man's Breeder, Mr Howard Cantley, Medina, Ohio and ask about this issue. He is noted for line breeding a fairly close family of dogs for several generations. I also own three dogs from Dave Hatfield's Kennel, Louisa, KY and they all have normal bites and descend from close relatives to White Pine Gay D-Man and which were also bred by Howard Cantley.
If you feel that the "bad gene" was contributed by D-Man, contact Mr. Lee Risley, whom you know sold D-Man to a party in Missouri, who in turn sold him to a party in Tn or KY. It my understanding that D-Man sired litters in MO, TN and KY. Check with the Breeders of those litters to see if D-Mans pups have abnormal bites.
To avoid the "bad bite" defect in the future, care must be given in selecting a mate for Ruby, one that has a history free of passing this defect to it's offspring. It is not a Gay line thing. All dog families that are line bred experience doubling the good and the bad traits of the line.

[rabbitsmoker]

I know 3 had bad bites i may be mistaken which ones was bad And Robin will bred again even tho he gets a bad bite he usually gives them away its not a fault its all in what someone likes The cross he has made 3-4 times (GayMary)i think he gets a bad bite or 2 no big deal dont hurt the running Im sure the female Jack had had a bad bite the other 2 maybe was males Ruby hasnt had a pup yet with a bad bite Everything in my kennel if not full Gay is at least half or 1/4 of steelmangays He has helped me alot(Some of my litter got into hands that was never Reg.)

[steelman]

I feel that I should respond to this post as I feel that there may be some confusion on some of my breeding practices. I do consider a bad bite as a fault and yes I have had it occur a few times over the years. I don't think that this problem is any more prevalent in the Gay line than any other line. I would consider the Gay line to be free of a lot of the common defects that plague a lot of other lines.What I will usually do if I have a pup born with a bad bite is it is culled, but a lot of times a pup will not show any defects at 8 weeks and for this reason there may be some out there that I don't know about. This is the reason I don't usually sell pups until 12 weeks. I can only think of one pup with a seriously bad bite that left here and that was one that was given away to a young girl.
When you linebreed and inbreed you should be prepared to get some less than desirable traits occasionaly.This individual should not be used for breeding purposes but it is possible that the sire and dam could be bred again and never pass this trait on to any of thier pups. If this same cross exhibits this fault more than once one should not make this cross again.
The cross between Steelman's Biggy John x Bill's Gay Marry have produced some excellent results and in the three times that I made this cross I can't remember any with a bad bite.

[cburchett77]

I have three dogs that go back to Steelman's stuff and one of which is part of the biggy John and Gay Mary cross, One of them I have a pup out of. None of mine has a bad bite. If I had to guess I would say that certain cross you made has something that is creating this fault for some unknown reason. No ones fault, but just like they said "if you are line breeding this thing is bound to happen sooner or later".

[S.R.Patch]

I will not speak of the gay line, I've only had one, he was an excellent jumpdog and would carry through on many checks where others had trouble. I only got rid of him because he became a fighter at a kill and you couldn't run young hounds with him as he made them shy of the rabbit.

I've told many on the patch line, the closer you breed, the more clean the hounds you use and their ancestry must be. With family breeders, the odds are high these hounds are going to be brought back together through their descendants and any weakness will be brought out or become magnified(become set). One may not know all the weaknesses or faults a hound carries hidden in it's background, but once exposed(expressed), there is no lying to ones self about what is being carried in the genes. You either cull,...or chose to carry it along in the bloodline, that is the hard facts.
There is no perfection, but it is our responsibility to do our best with what we know is true and fact, otherwise, it is the means to our own end.

When I studied genetics, it was heartbreaking. The work, time, effort involved in creating something, only to hit a wall with the genes exposing a hidden fault was overwhelming, it's no wonder people throw up their hands in disgust and say, "outcrossing is the best way to breed, with the genes all mixed up the odds of faults are reduced", but so are the odds of success and the ability to reproduce what you've got.

If you have the gum-shun to take on the task, know that there is more against you than is fore you and the work will never be completed, but if we can pass it on a litter better than we received it, being apart of the process is reward enough...
Best of luck on your endeavor...

[rabbitsmoker]

Very well said Steelman i agree when line and inbreeding the stakes are higher not nessarilly in your cross but maybe on down the line i just mentioned Gay because thats what i got not pointing out Gay to the breed with bad bites but its the case with any linebred breed I new you culled them but having them cant always be helped i know the one your talking about and a bad bite is all she has one fine looking hound My Ruby female out of cat is a fine dog just imagine Cat with a screaming mouth . Cat throwed 3 with bad bites Ruby hasnt throwed any yet Thanks for all you have done for me you have certainly went above to help me in my breeding I told you i was going to breed another gay line then come back to your line to try and keep the bad bites and traits to a minimum and the next breeding now is that direction after 3 years and 6 litters later lol

[rabbitsmoker]

never knew why but you see some with thier front teeth sticking away over and some thier bottom teeth sticking way over we always called them parrot mouth

[tommyg]

Just about every bloodline out there throws a bad bite sometimes.Some throw crooked legs,ears set to high ect.I can't keep a hound that has a bad bite.But I do know it doesn't affect the way the run I had a pup Dexter that had a bad bite and he could smoke a rabbit at 6 months just couldn't live with the bite.