Half Brother/Sister Cross??

BCBeagles · Post by **BCBeagles** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:30 am

I have two hounds I really like and am interested in a few opinions on. I will detail each below, but what I am considering is a half brother to sister cross. Same sire different mothers. It will give 3/4 of the line I am most concentrated on. They compliment each other in there weak areas super. I will put there strengths and weaknesses below and let me know if you would do it?

Jake: Great size and build
Huge chop mouth
Extremely good line control with no extra mouth in cold trailing or check
Average hunt, but jumps a few rabbits
This dog is just a very nice gundog with line control and nice speed to spare. I really enjoy his easy going attitude and willingness to please. He can really check a pack to death
and I love watching him do this. He is also very independent in his running, he runs thru the pack as they hit or miss and this is a very delsirable trait in him for me.

Lilly: Nice size, average head, smaller build than I prefer
Very good speed, Faster than Jake, but not much because of his control.
High pitch squeally squall and machine gun chop that sounds like a turkey yelping with extreme volume. I am not crazy about her mouth
Extreme hunt, with a bit of an edge for not handling if let to do her thing
Line control is okay, but is nice in the check and reaches a little more than I like at times
Physically very tough and goes hard all day!

I can't find any reason not to make this cross and just want some feedback. Lilly has a little extra mouth on rough scent, but nothing that I can't live with. Her hunt is consistantly hard and she is always looking for a rabbit. Jake has average hunt and on days when rabbit scent is about pretty regular he hunts nice as well, just sometimes seems a bit undermotivated until scent is in the area. He can definitely run a rabbit cleaner than her and this is where I think I can add to this line known for extreme hunt to begin with.
Thanks for any and all feedback. These hounds are both off of True Grit Majer by Mill Branch Majer who is off of Indian Hill's Majer. This is some of the closest links to Indian Hills Majer still out there and I love these hounds. They also have several crosses of Dingus Macrea, upwards of 6-10 each. Let me know what you think!!!

toldyouso · Post by **toldyouso** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:33 am

i have done it and it seems to be a pretty good cross

Gunslinger Beagles · Post by **Gunslinger Beagles** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:44 am

i had a friend to make even a closer cross than that many times and they was really really really good. they was of the little irland line and they was something to see. who knows but i do no he did some tight crosses that worked out good for him.

sanfordssj · Post by **sanfordssj** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:54 am

if you own em, love em, breed em!

I wouldnt promote inbreeding (full brother/sister, mother/son, father/daughter) but some of the best dogs i have owned have been half brother/half sister or uncle/neice.

Good luck!

bwe007 · Post by **bwe007** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:59 am

JMO. i like the idea of the cross. my only opinion is that it sounds like the male somewhat lacks in the hunt department. if my assumption of this is false then you can throw this out. i would personally find a male out of the same sire with similiar qualities and a little more hunt. if a such dog is anavailable then i would go ahead and make the breeding. you will see a lot of consistency in the litter. it may be good or bad but it will be consistent. i have dogs out of half brother sister and father daughter all out of one line and i wouldn't trade them for anything.

Gunslinger Beagles · Post by **Gunslinger Beagles** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:05 am

im not promoting in-breeding as well. Im just stating that back in the 90's a guy i no did it. I also can not deny the results he got either. Many akc fc where produced and some plain awesome gun dogs. I have often considered it but i have never done it......but im not saying i would not do it either. So with that being said, Im niether promoting it or tell anyone not to. It is up to the person. Foood foooor thought!!LOL

BCBeagles · Post by **BCBeagles** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:12 am

Bwe,

You are right his hunt is not that strong on days where the action is slow. This may be due to the fact he has been packed his whole life and I will be soloing him a lot this spring and summer. He was owned by an individual who always took his little girl with him to run and she was always holding him to pet him before rabbits would be jumped. I don't think that is the only reason his hunt is average, but he does seem to need a little extra attention. If you point and shoot this dog into a brush pile he will tear it up looking for a rabbit and sometimes he just goes and jumps one. He just seems a little under motivated at times like I said. He is not old, he is only 2 and seeing more time in the woods now than he has ever seen so it could get better. Lilly is a hard, hard hunter with a ton of grit I love that little dog and I love Jakes running style with the independence and lack of me-tooing in losses. I don't know, I am no expert for sure. There sire was a very hard hunter and Lilly's mom is also a very good hunter. Not sure of the hunting style of Jakes dam, but she is out of quality dogs, at least in pedigree terms.

Thanks so far!!

HAREHOUND · Post by **HAREHOUND** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:19 am

tomorrow our shooters page 1 (shooter x dihna) will be breed to glacier ridge renegade who is also out of shooter so i guess that lets you know what i think because this is also a half brother/sister cross. crosses such as this, or uncle/niece crosses have been some of the best that i have seen.

BCBeagles · Post by **BCBeagles** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:38 am

I see that also in a lot of nice dogs. I think these crosses also lead to outstading out crosses for future use. We will see if timing allows me to do it. I think I could get some really nice hounds out of it! We'll see, Harehound good luck with yours!

NorWester1 · Post by **NorWester1** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:47 am

Questions like these are virtually impossible to answer. A style or type of breeding is just a tool. Asking whether this sort of cross would work is like going to a carpenter's forum and asking if they like hammers.

If you are happy with the dogs and they carry the traits you are looking to propagate then you've got the first and most important base covered.
What you haven't mentioned is what the sire of both dogs you plan on breeding together was or is like. Seeing as how you are about to "double up" on him and his bloodline, both the strengths and weaknesses, this is an important consideration.

Generally speaking one does a breeding like a half brother to half sister to intensify and eccentuate the traits of the common ancestor, in this case your dogs sire.

BCBeagles · Post by **BCBeagles** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:56 am

That is exactly what I am trying to do and trial and error is the only way as you said. The sire of both these hounds has both the traits and breeding I want to continue with and these hounds I both like, but in some areas more than others. I probably answered most of my own questions, but I like to get feed back with what others have had direct experience with. thank you all!

sanfordssj · Post by **sanfordssj** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:57 am

Gunslinger Beagles wrote:im not promoting in-breeding as well. Im just stating that back in the 90's a guy i no did it. I also can not deny the results he got either. Many akc fc where produced and some plain awesome gun dogs. I have often considered it but i have never done it......but im not saying i would not do it either. So with that being said, Im niether promoting it or tell anyone not to. It is up to the person. Foood foooor thought!!LOL

That wasnt meant to be towards you or anyone one on this thread...lol Me personally, I would never tell anyone to inbreed or give them advice on how to even go about it....

I love line breeding, so the half brother/sister, and Uncle/niece crosses are some of the best out there......they set up your best outcrosses in my opinion...for what ever it is worth. I will try to line breed every litter I can unless its already tight and needs outcrossed.

Gunslinger Beagles · Post by **Gunslinger Beagles** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:20 am

this is a great topic. and i am enjoying it. sanford i am not taking anything personal at all. this is a great subject and glad to just add a little to it. i agree you guys and thats my plans. i have made a cross that im greatly looking forward and if it turns out well i will cross it again with the pups uncle. great topic jim!!

mybeagles · Post by **mybeagles** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:31 am

BCBeagles,

Sounds to me like your mind is made up. I suspect if someone were to post on here that its a bad idea they would get jumped on. Your OK to agree with the breeding even if you have never seen either dog in question, but you would be a jerk for discouraging the cross because you have never seen either dog in question.....

I'm a firm believer in breeding to the best male you can find to the best female you have.......if this male is the best dog you know of, and the female is good enough to be bred then why not. If you know of a male that's better than your male, I would breed to him.

A better question might be.......How many of you would like a pup out this cross? Most would likely not want one because they have never seen your hounds run, which is the same reason they probly shouldn't advise you on this being a good cross.

Majority of the best dogs out there today seem to be from outcrossing, but I'm sure some will argue thats because there isn't enough inbreeding being done.

Good luck in your cross,

How much for the pups?.....lol

Mybeagles

BCBeagles · Post by **BCBeagles** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:54 am

Mybeagles,

I understand your points and I agree, but if I am improving on a line and line breeding this close I am doing that for a purpose. First I don't care if anyone buys my pups and that is not meant to be offensive at all. I will breed for my personal stock and not to flood the market with my hounds. I have spoken with several folks and reputable ones at that and this is a good way of concentrating both good and bad. My hounds other than the extra mouth of Lilly, occasionally, are not faulty as I see it for my wants and needs. If anyone would look closely at some of the top reproducing hounds out there and just good hounds alot of them have a double shot of something somewhere, JMO. I do believe in breeding the best to the best as well, but what about two complimentary hounds from the same line. I have a male here that will out hunt this male, but the male in question will make him look silly on a tough running rabbit. I am looking to build on what I have not just reach out to the best. My female has already produced an above average litter, with only two surviving, but showing a ton of desire and rabbit skills. We will just have to see if the timing of her heat cycle works out and go from there. Thanks.

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