The Best producing male

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 12:20 pm

coyote hunter said: like Rob was saying about Ninja it not the amount of times a male is bred it what comes out of it when he is bred.THATS COMMON SINCE or is it ????DUH

It may very well be true that the dog you speak of is what it appears to be and what I'm talking about does not revolve around names but rather the numbers. You look at a slice of the pie and I am talking about the whole pie I apologize for not being clear. Steve C thanks for saying what I meant in regards to the numbers. Your insight on Dan is also good knowlege to have

Dave

KanesIrish · Post by **KanesIrish** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 3:39 pm

thanks Steve for clarifying things on Dan. Some people have a hard time believing that Striker has bred more litters then Dan.

Hatteras Bob I said that Striker had 9 LITTERS registered for the Futurity, where Dan had 4 LITTERS registered and neither had ANY placing dogs in any of the four classes. Dan had a grandpup WIN and I don't think Striker was in any of the placing dogs pedigrees.

Mark T · Post by **Mark T** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 4:07 pm

My opinion, give me IFC Maravics Blue Ninja any day!! With his sire in close second. As far as what Rob said with none of his studs coming close to his producing power. I don't think any of them have been bred near enough to tell. When Ninja died suddenly in the summer of '95 many rushed to breed to one of his sons. So this didn't give any 1 stud many breedings. Ninja was bred 42 times, I have seen Vic's paperwork. I know for a fact FC Greenbriar Maravics Simba has not been bred 20 times. Blue Barry may be the closest to Ninja and I might be wrong but I don't think he is over 40 breedings. These are the only 2 I have any knowledge on. As far as Ninja bitches, they are golden! I have/have had 4 of them with outstanding results of all of them, no matter what I bred them too. My entire kennel is centered on Jack and mostly Ninja and his sisters. With outcrosses from Shaker and Striker. I also have a couple here from FTC Moneysunk Mt Man, which is Striker and Sock it Too me, I plan on adding the Ninja/Jack stuff too. This topic is like a$$holes!! You feed what you like, be it Ranger Dan, Striker, Ninja, Too Me, etc.. They ALL have had a great influence in the sport from Canada to the south. And with the proper breeding practices, linebreeding, there influence should be in our sport for years to come. Too Me and Ninja have been gone a number of years now, but you can still find the blood upclose today and still winning/placing.

dawgydawg67 · Post by **dawgydawg67** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 4:16 pm

KaneIrish
I just have a question, when did Dan die? Could this be the reason for the lack of litters for the futurity and why Striker's are still there?

Slaux · Post by **Slaux** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 10:33 pm

Steve C. , I always enjoy what you post, it is usually based on first hand knowledge, not jealousy or rhetoric. I haven't seen that many dogs out of Ranger Dan or Striker, but those that I have seen I have liked. Most of the dogs I've seen out of Dan were medium to fast, with good noses and control. The one I've seen the most has been IFC Green Bay Shooter and you can't find a more complete hound than him. I've only actually watched one dog out of Striker run and she is all desire and guts.

I guess I have disagree with you on the conformation aspect on Dan though, most of the hounds I've seen out of him have been beautiful dogs, although I have seen a few that were a bit cow hocked. Was Ranger Dan a bit cow hocked himself? I've seen a few pups out of him that exhibited this trait.

coyote hunter · Post by **coyote hunter** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 11:18 pm

Hi All ,Steve I would have expected a little different coment on this topic from you however its your opinion and thats ok and you made some real good comments.You said dan was not bred as much as I said approx.200, will how long was he in the states??? 6 yrs???? will I was told from Tom himself that Dan was bred almost 80 times from dec. to Oct. and that was only 1 year so Steve maybe its time for you to look a little deeper on what you think you know I will say Dan was a dam good hound himself however he was not a big producer of FC but he was a dame good producer of money for Tom's Bank account,not that I think that is wrong but that is fact and not what I personally do thats all.Take care Dan.P.S Kane what is your e-mail I can't get you PM to work.

KanesIrish · Post by **KanesIrish** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 1:03 am

Ranger Dan died in the winter between 2002 and 2003, I can't remember the exact date myself, but I remember Tom coming up to me and telling me he passed away, as he remembered that I admired Dan's running style and what he was producing.

As far as Ninja goes, there is no dog out there that can compare to his producing numbers. I love the Ninja line, and I personally have finished a bitch out of Simba and now have her full brother, but nobody on the male side of that line will ever go as far as their father.

Steve C. · Post by **Steve C.** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 8:01 am

Steve, I don't want you to think that I was saying that I thought Dan had poor conformation or that nose was the only reason folks bred to him. I was over-simplifying the primary traits that that could be expected from the two studs. I've had hounds off both Dan and Striker and while I liked both; there were obvious differences that one could expect in a majority of offspring. Personally, while I like a short coupled dog like Ranger Dan was, I think a hound fares better endurance-wise with a longer body. Striker dogs are outstanding in this regard in my opinion. You nailed the only real fault I've seen in Dan pups in regard to conformation. I've had cow hocked pups in about 30% of my pups off Dan, though none of them seriously. Stella, my best bitch off him, is slightly cowhocked and I had to pay attention to this when I bred her. You'll also be cutting off a lot of hind dewclaws and I'd like to see more toughness in his offspring. Still, a majority of his offspring were good to outstanding and most importantly, he stamped his traits on his pups, as did Striker to a great degree, the real mark of a producer. The only real complaint I had with Striker's offspring was lack of snow nose on tough running conditions. Remember, each of us have our preferences but must acknowledge a good stud's ability to reproduce himself. There are a lot of great producing hounds out there that I wouldn't feed, but I won't deny their ability to produce like themselves. When we speak of our opinion on who the "best" producers were, obviously we're going to mention the ones in our bloodlines; otherwise we wouldn't be running them. Tom Sharpe probably made quite a bit of money from Ranger Dan and I think that's great. If he hadn't have invested the cash in him and the dog was sent back to Nova Scotia again, very few of us would have had the opportunity to breed to him. I considered buying him, but the stud dog business is not for me. Was Dan the greatest producer ever? I don't think so, but he made a great outcross for me to go to at a time when I needed one and the results were exactly what I was looking for. Now his offspring are being bred back into the line. Rob, no knock on Ninja, but don't neglect the other half of Simba's pedigree. From that line, there have been 11 consecutive generations of FTCs! The only reason I have not used him is due to size considerations.

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 9:02 am

Anonymous wrote:If we are striving to produce better dogs and are producing better dogs than the past why would you want to go to the past to improve what you have.
There ought to be something better with some past in it that is still alive.

Don't have a lot to add to the conversation, except that the above quote from someone a few pages back makes a lot of sense to me.

I hate to oversimplify it, but an above average producer should be capable of consistently producing equal or better dogs than they are themselves, no?

Slaux · Post by **Slaux** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 9:39 pm

Steve C. thanks for the insightful response. I agree with you whole heartedly. So what if Tom made a few bucks on the dog. Is he a promoter, sure, but he promotes excellence, not junk. He has definetly improved the breed along the way and done so in a very professional manner. As much as the Krpans have been knocked along the way, the same can be said for them. They have done much to improve the breed and make it available to the rest of us.

I also remember Tom stating in a post a few years ago that Dan had only been bred 60 or so times in his lifetime. I know he was here in Michigan for six months or so the last year of his life. Several people tried to breed to him, but he couldn't do it most of the time and bred only a handful of few bitches while he was here.

Jesse Duncan · Post by **Jesse Duncan** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 10:38 pm

hi,

I just been reading through this post. I have noticed blue nijia and jack of all trades and east cost trimmer mentioned on this post. What I am asking is wouldn't the same sire side if you breed to either one? Because if I'm remember right east coast trimmer is jacks sire, and jack is blue nijia sire. so would you get the same line if you breed to either? Correct me if I'm wrong. Keep em runnin boys! Jesse Duncan

coyote hunter · Post by **coyote hunter** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 10:40 pm

Hi all .here comes another one of my opinions again lol.Slaux I know nothing of you but would maybe guess to have some Dan blood lol.guys why not call a spade a spade,and slaux if you think branko is into this sport to better the breed you must of banged your head very very hard.Why don't he show up at very many trial to promote his hounds??? rather charge everyone big bucks for a hound and let them make his line look great Right ?????take Dan

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 10:46 pm

Here is what better beagling has said

2003- ifc melanson ranger dan and ifc MJR mitsou argentueil striker
2002- ifc melanson ranger dan
2001- ifc melanson ranger dan
2000- ifc trakarab pace setter
1999- ifc branko's ali baba
1998- ifc maravic's blue ninja
1997- ifc maravic's blue ninja
1996- ifc branko's ali baba
1995- ifc branko's ali baba
1994- ifc round pond mr. T
1993- ftc the elm's jigs maggies mate
1992- ifc round pond mr. T
1991- ifc round pond mr. T
1990- ifc round pond mr. T
1989- fc indian hills major
1988- ifc birch haven bruiser
1987- ifc birch haven bruiser
1986- ifc able's east coast trimmer
1985- ifc able's east coast trimmer
1984- ifc able's east coast trimmer

SMITTY1233 · Post by **SMITTY1233** » Wed Jul 28, 2004 8:08 am

coyote hunter,

I think you will be suprised by the blood Slaux runs, I dont know him well enough to comment on it but I do know he is very insightful and knowlegable and I enjoy reading his post. If you dont think the Krpans have had an impact on the beagling world your blind. I dont know Branko or Frieda and have never even spoken to them. But when I look back through beagle history they are a big part of it. If they can get 350.00 for a pup then they must be doing something right. No I dont have any close branko stuff in my pen either, it just kills me when people claim branko hasnt had an impact on beagling.

coyote hunter · Post by **coyote hunter** » Wed Jul 28, 2004 8:50 am

Good morning all,Smitty if you read my post I said nothing of the not having an impact on the sport when you have 50 or so litters a year you better make an impact,what I said was they breed for the $$$$ some of the stuff they are crossing should have been shot simple ,I am not saying they are not one of the most knowledgeable on hounds in the world maybe but I am saying their kennel has changed from a top notch kennel of trial and hunting hounds to a puppy mill thats all I am saying and how can one disagree.Its guys like me and you that make there kennel shine not them.Take care Dan.

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