Harder to run, Snowshoe or cottontail ?

[NorWester1]

I'm with Fulcount on that one. The hares around here are probably about 3 lbs average, maybe less.

I've heard Budd figures that most cottontails are just as big, but not as long. Keep in mind though, Budd is hanging out with the Toothfairy these days and can't be bothered with hare that stink like a WV fox

[S.R.Patch]

I agree, I never held one as heavy as the old Ithaca.
Never had a cottontail I had to cut off at the knee to get to fit in the skillet.
Lots of guys like to start their pups on cottontail to teach them patience in working the line, they don't go as far between jumps and the tracks are closer together, running hare causes hounds to flash over the end of the line when returning to run cottontail often because the c'tail won't line out and run like a hare when pressured, he will used his cover and many trails to throw off the hounds, the hare wants to put distance between himself and the danger so his home range is greater than the cottontail. The hare seems to have a better homing instinct than the cottontail, he will find his way back after a looong loop, but a cottontail forced to run straight out is in big trouble and is running for his life, it's his bag of tricks or the hole.
Basically in field events, the cottontail is your 100 yard sprinter and the hare is your distance runner, Nature and environment has designed each to best fit what successfully endures.
There are days they both make monkeys out of my hounds equally well...

[ohlinger]

I'm with Fulcount on that one. The hares around here are probably about 3 lbs average, maybe less.

I've heard Budd figures that most cottontails are just as big, but not as long. Keep in mind though, Budd is hanging out with the Toothfairy these days and can't be bothered with hare that stink like a WV fox

lol here comes the lynch'n mob..sorry boys i ain't fittin to argue wit ya and i did'nt carry a scale with me when i was hunting..but when i can hold a hare up at my waist by the feet and it's head reaches half way down calf past my knee i would assume it's close to 5lbs seeing as to how a cottontail would barely if at all reach my knees when held at the waist I'm (5'10). I believe the exact thing you're quoting is where i said a hare NEARLY DOUBLES THAT i guess you boys missed the NEARLY part of that statement that is all but just for you...next time i'll be sure to have a tape measure, a scale, and a camera, a notary seal, and a lawyer for ya..lmao. My apologies did'nt mean to ruin ur day....it's pretty much common sense though cottontail or hare on the same conditions, same terrain, and the same day the dogs are gonna burn that hare up alot harder than that cottontail. nuff said.

[bucks better beagles]

My experience is that a good, fast cottontail dog will always make a good snowshoe dog but not vice versa. All it takes to run a hare is speed and drive. I seen many an average cottontail dog be an excellent hare dog. Especially, the ones that don't bark much on cottontails. You put them on a hare and they greatly increase their mouth.

Same goes for fox running with beagles except foxes can be a lot more tricky than a hare or cottontail.

[bbg]

My experience is that a good, fast cottontail dog will always make a good snowshoe dog but not vice versa...

I agree with that. From my own experience the cottontail is harder to run. I have seen many FC hare dogs that can't run a cottontail very well. Some cottontail dogs dont have the foot to compete with hare dogs on hare but on cottontail the extra foot works against them. Some dogs that run both will gear down when on cottontail (allowing them to make the turns), and speed up when on the bigger running hare. Both styles of dog have there purpose. Some guys hunt only hare, some only rabbit. A dog of the opposing style is worthless to them. I hunt both and need dogs that can run both. Around here you have to run both if you field trial your dogs as most club pens have both in them.

[mybeagles]

I lived in an area for 10 years where I had both. Some spots we would run both in the same section. From what I experienced, cottontail have a hotter scent. Puppies start much easier on a cottontail than hare. I live trapped both to start several pups and without exception the pups get more excited and show they get more scent from a cottontail.

I know Ill upset some guys here, but here goes........"Dogs cant run a rabbit that doesn't want to run". The race is dictated by the rabbit more than the dogs. When the conditions are great and rabbits want to run (spring time) every dog looks great. When conditions are bad (North country mid Jan) and rabbits dont want to run, most dogs can do nothing.

In my experience, hare are more willing to run than a cottontail, especially in bad weather. The hare will run longer and farther but when they want the race to stop its over. Hare can pull all the same tricks a cottontail can and will at times.

IMO the length of stride has NOTHING to do with it. Some of the best races I have had were on hare taking 10-15' leaps at a time and the dogs never had checks for hour at a time. Some of your worst races you will see rabbits picking around.

Find a rabbit that wants to run in miserable -30 deg powder snow and dogs will run it. When they dont want to run, nothing will be able to.

Some of you honestly believe scenting conditions change during your hunt, but it has more to do with the rabbit than your conditions.

Poor conditions just expose your dogs inability to run a rabbit that doesnt want to run. Great conditions cover up your dogs lack of ability.

Cold weather running according to Mybeagles

[S.R.Patch]

My experience is, none shows more of an advantage than the other, pups will readily start on either equally well. We took pups up in Oct. and the young hare ran like cottontail, circling, doubling and side jumping. It was only when a grown hare was started that pups had trouble, the hare made small loops to access the danger and when he'd had enough, he went into a sprint and left for parts unknown. The pups had to adjust themselves to reaching out a bit farther between track and once accustom, loosened up their search, when the hare would go through covert, the mouth and pace increased as we assumed the low growth held scent better, but when the track exited into the wood, the mouth became less and the tracking seemed more of a scramble to find the next as we assumed the hare took to full stride across the more open area and there was less growth to hold scent.
Cottontail can pick there days to run as they frequent "dens", rock piles and earthen such as groundhog holes. Hare, don't readily go to ground and as such, must stay out to play as long as the pursuer can remain in contact with the line.
The days rabbit/hare pick around are days the hounds are putting no real pressure on the rabbit(assume poor scenting) and he has the time ahead of hounds to pull many tricks from his proverbial "hat".
The days hounds fly, are days of(presume, better scenting) and the rabbit is pressured into full flight, thus not having the spared time to wag or waddle, but is running all out, for cover or hopes that distance gained & time will evaporate the scent, before the distance is covered by hounds. Crossing foil or some gap where scent does not hold well is a favorite stunt, a mucked up bog or a hard pack usually buys some time.
I believe, it is not the rabbit that dictates the run, but the scent that betrays him and the conditions that make it hold or evaporate like the frost off a sun struck hillside.
Now if your saying, a rabbit can hold it's scent at will, and only on days it feels like a stretch, release the oils from it's glands to be intermingled with the moisture vehicle that carries it to our hounds nose? Then that's a theory new to me and one needing some verification...
I have seen the white hare on bare ground sitting tight like a cottontail and can imagine they use that same method when the snow cover allows you to walk right by them unnoticed. This is where a hound hunting like a bird dog will cover the ground to get a start vers/ one trying to draw from the cold feeder trails of the night, but that's another subject...

[mybeagles]

Now if your saying, a rabbit can hold it's scent at will, and only on days it feels like a stretch, release the oils from it's glands to be intermingled with the moisture vehicle that carries it to our hounds nose? Then that's a theory new to me and one needing some verification...

SR Patch,

Have you ever had a race where the dogs were pounding then the hare sees you ...........then the hare takes off and when the dogs get to where you spooked it, they couldnt run it for 75-100 yards, then started pounding again? Any theory on this? Ive seen it 100 times......

Ever have a full grown rabbit dogs just couldn't hardly run, then they jump a new one and the dogs just pound it? I wonder why? Do you think the conditions change that fast?

How about when the dogs run a hare for 3-4 hours head high, then nothing......I wonder what happens.

Mybeagles

[Steve Mikkelson]

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[Steve Mikkelson]

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[hogbody]

I think the sex of the rabbit (buck or doe) has a lot to do with how well the dogs can run them. I think a buck rabbit stinks more than a doe. I think thats why the dogs will pound one rabbit and then the very next one they struggle. I started checking the rabbits I kill a few years ago and find that about 90% of them are bucks. I also think a doe zig zags and makes more turns because they are used to doing this when they have a nest near by. They don't want to get too far away. A buck on the other hand has nothing to loose and will just haul butt in a straighter line. JMO

[S.R.Patch]

Now if your saying, a rabbit can hold it's scent at will, and only on days it feels like a stretch, release the oils from it's glands to be intermingled with the moisture vehicle that carries it to our hounds nose? Then that's a theory new to me and one needing some verification...

SR Patch,

Have you ever had a race where the dogs were pounding then the hare sees you ...........then the hare takes off and when the dogs get to where you spooked it, they couldnt run it for 75-100 yards, then started pounding again? Any theory on this? Ive seen it 100 times......

Ever have a full grown rabbit dogs just couldn't hardly run, then they jump a new one and the dogs just pound it? I wonder why? Do you think the conditions change that fast?

How about when the dogs run a hare for 3-4 hours head high, then nothing......I wonder what happens.

Mybeagles

Yes, most times when you turn or startle the hare/rabbit, either by sight or shot, you've created a check in the line. I don't believe the hare/rabbit has a choice in this matter tho... Nature has designed her where a sudden scare or shock to the system either causes loss of scent or a chemical change to the scent that is released... and for a moment, the hounds do not recognize this scent, giving her time to gain some ground on the hounds. (a cloaking mode for you Star Wars fans, for survival)

Running one hare/rabbit better than another is also a common occurrence. If hounds are left to run the same hare/rabbit long enough, most typically, the ending is a loss with the hare/rabbit winning. There is a theory that, a beaten or long ran hare/rabbit's scent will eventually fail or come to exhaust itself(run low on gas) and weaken the scent the longer it's ran. The English believe through experience, this is when the older more experienced hounds recognize the hare/rabbit system is starting to fail her and they move forward in the pack for the nearing opportunity at a kill.

Running one hare/rabbit more successfully than another has many possibilities, a buck rabbit/hare over a doe, a full grown doe over a juvenile, and yes, even the time day when the conditions for good scent, go to the worst or a change of ground and cover.

Maybe I misinterpreted, but I don't believe a hare/rabbit has a at-will switch to turn on/off it's scent, else, I'm sure that switch would be in the off position most all time, as there is never really any rest for one of God's creatures so low on the food chain, thus...the "ever ready" rabbit, it just keep going and going...

I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just throwing out for discussion, that we may all gather some understanding of what seems reasonable...

[bucks better beagles]

SR: There is a theory that, a beaten or long ran hare/rabbit's scent will eventually fail or come to exhaust itself(run low on gas) and weaken the scent the longer it's ran.

I have never heard that theory. My experience is that if a dog has the ability to stay on a rabbit hard, the longer you run the better it gets. To the point if the rabbit doesn't hole up, it will get caught. People say, snowshoes don't hole but I have seen a many one take to a hollow tree or a small cave in the ground to avoid capture. A hard running rabbit uses more energy which causes its body to give off more scent. JMO

[S.R.Patch]

A hard running rabbit uses more energy which causes its body to give off more scent. JMO

I would agree to a point, but the scent comes from the oil glands. As the oils exhaust themselves, so weakens the scent trail.
Heat without the expressed oils yields nothing. imo

[bucks better beagles]

SR:

Technical point and possibly true. However, body scent in general is what I believe a dog pursues.