The trainer or the dog?

[jfields]

Whats your thoughts and experience on this? is it the trainer that makes a dog handle good or is it in the dog?

[bucks better beagles]

This question has come up many times on this site. The problem is, in order to test it you would have to try identical dogs with good trainers and bad. However, I have seen dogs from the same litter but with different handlers that made totally unequal hunters. Usually, the devoted handler will get more out of a dog than the man who does not have his heart into it. My opinion then, is handler. Nothing ever comes easy. It takes work and a great deal of time to make a good dog. Dogs learn nothing by being left on a chain.

[Tim H]

How the dog handles is in exact relation to how the trainer trains. We aren't talking about hunt or running rabbits, but just the handling then it is 100% the handler.

[mybeagles]

Its the responsibility of the handler, but some dogs make it easy, some make it real tough.

Ive owned dogs that never wore an e-collar and others that you could never catch without one their entire life.

Dogs differ, it depends on the handler to recognize that difference and act accordingly.

Mybeagles

[klrconcrete]

The "trainer" is ultimately responsible for what you see out a hound all the way around- handling, hunting, running etc. Obviously he or she cant directly teach a hound to run a rabbit but they effect it by the time they give it to practice. This is the same with the handling- if you put the time into it your odds of having hounds that handle greatly increase.

[mobeagle]

Whats your thoughts and experience on this? is it the trainer that makes a dog handle good or is it in the dog?

My personal opinion is the handler and that goes for more than just a dogs handling ability. I know some guys that nearly every dog they raise turns into a fine hound in every way you want and others who arent capable of raising a good dog. period. A buddy of mine who runs big hounds (coyote) has 18 dogs. When he gets ready to load dogs and collar them he does nothing but open the gate and the dogs are waiting on the tailgate to get collared and put in the box. Every dog he owns will do this and these dogs have extreme hunt they arent just some stupid pet who thinks they're going for a truck ride. They all come to his pickup horn when its time to load out in the field. Its no coincedence that every dog he owns handles well he knows what he's doing.

[jfields]

my question is on handling only. I know a trainer has to work with a dog ( pup ) But is there only so much you can do? is that dog gonna break and handle the way you want or is there a point where that dog will cooperate and still has a mind of its own?

I will add this ,I dont want to step on any toes or make anyone mad But there is no way anyone is gonna convence me that a trainer is responsible for , weather a dog hunts or not. That is entirely up to the dog and its breeding ( as long as the dog was given the oppurtunity to make something.)

[mobeagle]

I will add this ,I dont want to step on any toes or make anyone mad But there is no way anyone is gonna convence me that a trainer is responsible for , weather a dog hunts or not. That is entirely up to the dog and its breeding ( as long as the dog was given the oppurtunity to make something.)

I disagree to a point you do have to have the right breeding though. I'm mainly a coyote hunter but I've had hounds for over 20 years and I've seen first hand this theory proved that you can affect a dogs hunt with the proper techniques and time. When my pups are very little I will take a dead coyote (fresh) still carrying alot of scent and will take my pups over to where an older dog is and drag the coyote around with an older dog present barking at it and chewing on it the whole time I do this several times a winter. I will tell you that 90% that I've done this with before they reached the 6 month mark has hunted hard and made a fine hound. Coincedence? I dont think so. The dogs I havent done this with and put the time in with them were a crapshoot about 50/50 on wether they made good hounds.

[bbg]

I will add this ,I dont want to step on any toes or make anyone mad But there is no way anyone is gonna convence me that a trainer is responsible for , weather a dog hunts or not. That is entirely up to the dog and its breeding ( as long as the dog was given the oppurtunity to make something.)

I think the trainer is responsible for whether a dog hunts or not. How well a dog hunts or runs is up to dog and trainer. Dogs either have it in them or they don't. But mistakes can be made by handler/trainer that effect this also.
Your original question was about handling only. I think that is mostly the trainer. But all dogs are different. I have one that handled beautifully from the start and one that needed to be reminded that I'm in charge from time to time. I as trainer have learned to adjust the way I train each dog depending on its personality.

[jfields]

LOL , I will run a back track here and admit that I do agree a trainer can have an effect on a dogs hunt. I mean if you take a pup out and use the E collar wrong , try to train where there arent any rabbits or any other bad decisions im sure it may affect the dog. what I meant to say was either a dog has the desire or it doesnt. So i guess you are also correct. Like I said not here to step on any toes and all opinions and comments are welcome and appreciated.

[klrconcrete]

The limit- knowing when to say when! I call this part of the "culling" process, if the "trainer" has done his or her job the hound is the one that decides if it is a cull. No matter how talented a hound may be in the woods if it refuses to handle for and hunt with me it is useless. Anyone who has hunted with me would tell you that I refuse to own a dog that requires a shock collar on it every single time out. If I am doing my job while working with my hounds as pups this is a none issue for the ones that are NOT "culls". Kurt

[davidc5936]

I once thought handling was 100% the trainer- but no more. We had a female that was difficult to catch but we got her when she was over 1 year old and I thought it was just that she hadn't been handled as a pup. We bred her twice and every pup she threw was difficult to handle- the kind that stay just out of your reach when you are trying to load them up, or so shy that they couldn't be hunted in strange places or with strange people or dogs. Some of them didn't want to come out of the box, even to go hunting! Once you got them out, they were a ball of fire. Strange.

Now, I believe you can mess up a pup, more so by leaving it in a pen and never handling it as it is growing up than anything else. Take that pup out of the pen at 7 - 8 months that has never been handled and you will have problems, guaranteed. I still believe that 90% of how a pup handles is the trainer, but some of it can be genetics. If one of a pup's parents is shy, look out- you may have a problem.

[Casey Harner]

All about the dog. A great hound can put the trainer/handler on the map.

[PREACHERS,KENNEL]

i think its 50 /50 -- take a good bred dog to a not very devioted trainer he will make a average dog .

take the same dog to a devoted trainer we are talking about somone who knows how to trian a dog . in both cases .. he can make a great dog.

if it aint in him ,no matter how good you are as a trainer you cant get it out. \\

if its in him and you know how to enhance what is in him , not over shoock ,beat it to death over silly things ... feed and worm and show a little bit of love every now and again ,, he will give you all he has ....

[RiverBottom]

I try hard to breed hounds that don't need much training. The more I have to shock them, the lower their chances are of keeping their happy home.

Tri-tronics made it so anyone with half a brain and an extra couple hours a week can be a great dog trainer. But they also made it so that dogs that would have eliminated themselves from the gene pool can now pass their traits around.