Hi Robert,
They have managed to circle a few cottontail, though I am fearful of them taking a fox...
They have not mastered the inside/out check work yet, so I fear a close working type would not suite them well...
I am learning all the time and they are adjusting to doing things different than what they were accustom to. One of the biggest things is the way they were kept and the way we do it, pecking order is a very big thing to them and I have caused alot of chaos by moving them around to get them used to the other hounds. While they have a loving nature, they are far removed from any lap dog type. Elmer Gray's words keep ringing in my ear about his best hounds, they were always ready for a fight, a bowl of food or a rabbit race, these are no less. Elmer said, a fighting spirit, in man or beast, is necessary, for it is what is drawn from when the body says quit. Your best ball players have it and so do your best hounds...Patch
to all the linebreeders and inbreeders
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
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Robert W. Mccoy Jr
- Posts: 420
- Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2003 1:57 pm
- Location: Canton Michigan
sr patch, i can't recall where i read the article. it may have been something that someone posted. it must have been talking about someone else. after looking back thru my last post i can see that i didn't do a very good job of relaying what i was after. my apologies. i asked" could you produce good hounds with a lot of outcrossing". what i was trying to ask is can you produce consistently with a lot of outcrossing? for example; i breed my hound from a hard hunting family to a hound that is unrelated to my own, but also comes from a hard hunting family, shouldn't i consistently get hard hunting offspring? steve and bob both have answered the question, but if you are familiar with both families ( they are similar) then you should consistently get what you want. there will no doubt be some differences and maybe some hidden things as well, but would you cull more in this situation than you would have if you had chosen a linebreeding? just curious.
lee,
A lot of people have done what your sugesting and produced good hounds and make their case for outcrossing and that line/inbreeding is not necesssary and a evil. The problem is when those who keep the "family" going cease to be, where do you get your "family" members to outcross. I've always felt the "family" breeders do the dirty work for the outcross believers to benifit from.
A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still. This is JMHO
...Patch
A lot of people have done what your sugesting and produced good hounds and make their case for outcrossing and that line/inbreeding is not necesssary and a evil. The problem is when those who keep the "family" going cease to be, where do you get your "family" members to outcross. I've always felt the "family" breeders do the dirty work for the outcross believers to benifit from.
A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still. This is JMHO
...PatchLike Patch said, I've been fortunate enough to take advantage of the work done by far better breeders than I. Over the years I've narrowed my preferences in hound type to a few families who were genetically built through linebreeding to be able to reproduce in kind. I've outcrossed (or loosely linebred) these families but always included a common ancestor who was a proven producer as well, provided I felt this dog could improve on a trait I might be lacking. When I get a cross to "nick", I attempt to set those traits by doing a close cross and select the best individuals. Consistency comes hard though and you continue to get individuals who don't meet expectations. You need to always select those individuals who DO meet type over those who may have some outstanding qualities but don't meet type if you are to stay with the long term plan. Failures WILL happen but you need to move on and try not to make the same mistake twice. My latest litter, born last night, was a cross of two distinct families but both included the great producer IFC Round Pond Mr T. The consistency of the pups from this cross is excellent as far as what you can tell from day old pups, but of the 9 pups, it is nearly impossible to tell one from the other. The dam is an outstanding little hound but lacked toughness and needed a bit more footspeed to approach the ideal. The sire was known to be outstanding in both those traits and still was solid in all other areas. But, like the NFL draft, it's two years before you know if you made the right choice. The science of genetics is incredibly complex and interesting, but the ART of breeding cannot be overlooked.
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bob huffman
b
If you keep outcrossing it seems to me the dogs get a little loose in the loafers as I call it. At first you don't see it but after about 4 generations they seem to lose intensity. Also to keep outcrossing means mixing in lots of hidden traits and of course you will have to accept some bad traits that aren't hidden unless you have access to lots of differant bloodlines. In the final tally though, your percentage of culls would probably be no higher than other methods. One factor not talked about is the fact that the gene pool is always trying to revert back to the wolf or more likely just a mutt dog. The more constriced you make the selection pressure, the harder it is to maintain the type you want. That is to say the Beagle is always trying to revert back to the average of the gene pool. The average includes all the culls and all the average and the good dogs rolled into one gene pool. They tend to breed toward the average so you have more to contend with than just your breeding method. If you concentrate on knowing that and knowing that your selection and availability of good dogs are the key, you can do something good. If it were me, I would try all the methods and see which works the best for this particular case. Sounds simple but you are talking about at least 10 years before you have a real answer.
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Guest
one thing for sure, breeding is something that should be taken seriously. line breeding makes perfect sense to me, but have come across individuals who claim success with linebreeding and others who claim success with the method of outcrossing most of the time. i have a tough time figuring out how this could be and the reason for my questions. one thing that i have to keep reminding myself is that linebreeding, outcrossing, and the selection proceess aren't parallel lines.
Guest, one thing that I've noticed is that many great hounds were the product of outcrossing but often they fail to ever produce themselves or even approach their own ability. It's a rare hound who is prepotent regardless of whether he is the product of linebreeding or an outcross. Like Bob says, the "drag of the race" is always working to undo what we attempt to do.
Who's right and who's wrong?
Well there is never a completely yes or no answer when it comes to breeding. Line breeding does have its advantages, keeping the same traits, speed, brains, line control, nose, etc. you like in your bloodline. BUT, it never hurts to make an outcross every once in a while, IF you have studied this dogs bloodline, know what you are getting into. A good pup every once in a while ain't gonna do it. Study the dogs papers, talk to people who know this bloodline, and if you are the lest bit hesitant don't do it. Outcrossing can significantly help or hurt your bloodline. So be carefull what you bring in to your bloodline.
Colt
Psalm 118:8
Colt
Psalm 118:8