Is there a problem with today's beagles?

[mybeagles]

Nothing from the day of Creation has ever improved. Man has learned how to tinker around with breeding to bring out the traits they deem most important but improvement is in the eye of the beholder. All creation was created perfectly, you cant improve on that.

Man nearly destroyed the beagle breed during the brace hound fads, now we want to take credit for improving it?????

If you look at the top kennels in the country, they go through phases. For periods of time they seem to have the corner on the market sort of speak and can seem to do no wrong. Then for whatever reason they sort of fade away and cant seem to produce anything special. The kennels that have longevity start crossing out of their kennel and start mixing it up a bit and miraculously appear back on the scene with some top hounds again. They dont fix themselves by just continuing to breed what they have.

Is there any of you that would claim to have improved the beagle? If so, how did you do and what did you improve?

Mybeagles

[Alabama John]

I've said this before so bear with me.

In the old days when dogs earned their keep, men around me would breed into their dogs anything that was doing the job better than theirs as they were trying to improve their dogs. It was such an education and fun to go get a pup out of the mix you anticipated from 'ol Judy and Big Max that both were the talk of the county.

These dogs were called rabbit dogs, not called beagles. Lots had no beagle in them. I feel some though were mostly beagle, but not all. I've seen Walkers that were small bred to smaller ones to get a breed of walker that was 15-16 inches. Same with small squirerel dog black and tans, blueticks, redbones, lemon triggs. Ever seen a beagle tree a squirrel or bark tree in a hole? I have and wonder if way back there 'ol Big Max is showning up.Wonder why or when did the colors change on registered beagles? What was the only colors seen in old pictures? What happened?

One of the most popular was the small July hounds and they could sure run all day. One popular mix was these big hounds with a dashound and they would breed the second generation which ws even more popular as it would be 1/4 dashound and 3/4 good rabbit dog, whatever breed to get them small and in the brush type of dog.

I laugh when I see post of HYBRID VIGOR as that was all we had and some of us still have. I'd breed one of my beagle looking dogs in a minute to one of those small Julys if I could find one that consistently throws 15-16 inch pups. They would meet any breed standard if the size was small enough.

Wonder why some dogs lines consistently throws BIG pups? Maybe here's the answer the current breeders or owners don't even suspect or know why.

Don't see those lines of dogs anymore, or do we? At trials I've seen some dogs that sure have their looks and are registered in various registries.

[Dave Swiger]

One problem that i see is that folks are breeding a more hot nosed dog now for trials. If you have a rule that a rabbit must be produced in 3 to 5 minutes, these dogs cannot have any sign of a cold nose. I have no desire for a cold nose dog that boo hoo's on track for an hour before the jump, but in time their nose's will be very limited. Good for trials but what about the breed?

Dave Swiger

[TallPaul]

I agree with alot of what has been said, Dogs in the past were probably looked at in a different light, If it didn't fulfill a roll in the homestead, it was gone. And a very small percentage of reg. beagles can even come close to being full bloods.
I do believe it is a true bias, to sit and compare a dog of the past with whats on the ground today. Time tends to bend the facts, even first hand.
I believe the average Joe, does have the opportunity now days to improve what he has, more so than Gents of the past, Communication via the net, and the increase travel.
The varying styles like by all, keeps the breed the same consistency as the past, and each group has those that shine. Just start looking at dogs that are for sale. Your idea of 'acomplishment or style' will be evident.
I see a lot of guys chasing dead dogs in their breeding, maybe we should be looking at the dogs on the ground now. Alot of faulty dogs are being bred because they are a son, daughter, grandson, gdaughter of something, but these same dogs can't jump or run a rabbit.
Dogs of today are the same caliber, we just have more of them (good ones and bad)
Paul Horning

[tenntreedog]

Sometimes I think the longer they have been dead the better they get in our memories.I know I owned 2 that I remember as being exceptional .I would love to see how my present dogs would look in the same race with them.But I`m sure after these have been gone a few years they will stack up with anybodys dogs .

[Mike Gibeaut]

I Do Not See A Problem With Today's Beagles As I Do See A Problem With Today's Trainers.Handlers And Hunters.The Biggest Problem In My Opinion Is EGO.I Have Rabbit Hunted For Over 45 years.We Use To Take Dogs Hunting And Enjoyed Eavh Others Company Plus Loved To Hear Dogs Run.The Only Ribbing Or Making Fun Was At Someones Shooting Ability.We Bought shells Individually for A Nickel Couldn't Afford A Whole Box.This Coming Saturday 1st Day Of Rabbit Season Will Go With My Dad(83)And My Son.We will Enjoy Each Other's Company Plus Get Ready For It If You Miss.I Believe We Would Better The Sport More By Just Letting The Dog's Do The Talking!!!!!!!!!

[DRamey]

hounds are the same, people who live on the go and never slow down have changed. Sometimes I think hounds look at us and think, "how stupid!" We turn them loose and they do nothing more or less than what they love and what instinct/genetics tell them to do. They could care less about all the hullabaloo about us pulling their tails up to make them look pretty, beagle to other beagle: "These guys must be real sissies, fixated on our backsides like that!" Everybody starts competing in tee ball and has it reinforced over and over that we are no good unless we are winners. Has nothing to do with us, when my hound competes and does well "I" didn't win squat. Ever notice that when a hound wins, the owner says "I won" but when the hound loses, "He lost." We all need to slow down and watch the leaves turn, feel the changes in the air as God says it's time for fall, and take life a little slower. It ain't the dogs, gentlemen, we have all begun to act horribly inbred!

[River Valley Beagles]

Very good topic and one that I will weigh in on because it is very evident. And I'm not going to be very sensitive to anyone so, I'll say in advance, sorry for those of you I offend. I think that rabbit hunting hounds haven't changed a bit. They are still the same rabbit hounds that most have hunted over for decades. The AKC Mid-West however, has been letting alot of extra mouth pass through for the last several years that I didn't see 10-15 years ago. It seems that we are moving away from some faults and scoring more heavily on accomplishments even though some hounds are totally full of BS and are very pack wise. I think this has alot to do with the many new judges and the fact that many don't even gun hunt anymore. I may be wrong but it's definitely changed. Several of the hounds finishing today wouldn't be much for gun hunting over in my opinion and that's not to say I own perfect hounds, it's just to say that alot of mouth is overlooked nowadays. It seems that the hounds with the most mouth wins alot of the days-no matter the circumstances. I've seen alot of judges getting fooled lately. That didn't happen as much 10-15 years ago.
Another change is in breeding hounds over these past 10-15 years. Alot breed their own hounds proclaiming that thier cross will be the next up and coming. You didn't see this 10-15 years ago. Alot, alot, alot of "back yard breeding" is going on that just didn't happen 10-15 years ago. For the most part, you had a good female you trusted and bred to the best male. I surely don't think this is happening nowadays. People are stuck so far up their kennel's blind side that they don't even know that their dogs are getting their butts whooped. Heck, I went through so many (I'll leave this blank) hounds I had to find out the hard way he didn't produce. Same way with several of the top studs of the time I went through. It just don't happen anymore.
People make excuses for their hounds "day off" instead of realizing the guy running against them may have something better.
This is my resolution. And one that will happen soon- that stud dogs will be under the camera for an enduring hunt. You take 4-5 guys with cameras and shoot film of the stud dogs for a enduring day's hunt. I don't think this is too far away and would love to see it myself. Look at my signature.
Now, one thing that I have seen out of the Mid-West that I didn't see years ago is that they don't run deer like they used to. That goes with above statements of breeding.
And you better take a look atwho is on this thread because some very, very knowledgeable people have already posted. Not counting myself with knowing Jack Didley.

[Earl Rice]

Before I comment on this I want everyone to know why I posted the question in the first place. I wasn’t to try to bash any association, format, judge, hound or handler. A 65-70 year old friend of mine stopped by my house couple weeks back and stated he was having a difficult time finding a good rabbit hound. Now understand this guy doesn’t field trial AKC, ARHA, UKC, or any other format that I know of. He has never judged a trial, read a judges rule book, been to a judge’s seminar or even been to any type of field trial. But this doesn’t mean the man doesn’t know what real rabbit hound is. He has probably forgotten more than most judges know now days, (including ME). Only complaint I’ve ever had with this friend is he didn’t care if he ran full stock beagle hounds. He would run a half collie mix if it could jump and circle the rabbit back to the gun. This friend explained to me that he couldn’t hunt like he wanted to because of his health, but he would really like to be able to turn couple/three hounds out on his farm and listen to a good race maybe kill rabbit for breakfast occasionally. According to his story he has tried several hounds lately and I quote “can’t find a hound that will hunt enough to jump a rabbit, or if I find one that hunts it is so fast it can’t run 5 minutes with loosing the rabbit. After listening to him fuss about all these “high dollar beagles” that can’t run a rabbit by themselves, because he knew I own and run what he calls "High dollar hounds" AKC hounds, I decided to post my question to see what other modern day beaglers thought.

Now to answer my own question, do I think today’s beagles are as good as beagles from the past?
Yes, I do. However, I think now days we have a higher percentage of bad hounds than good ones. I’m 35 years old and have had beagles for 25 years. Only own AKC bred hounds and field trialed for about 15 years, so I can’t say much about any hounds before my time and I don’t claim to know it all. However, I have notice the number of quality hounds have went down hill for the last few years. Or maybe just not as many or them coming to trials???? There still some excellent hounds that show up and run in field trials, and I would love to have them in my kennel. However, I have judge way more hounds that I wouldn’t own. Just my opinion.

Why do I think the number of quality hounds are going down?
I don’t know. Maybe Steve688 and my old buddy are right. People don’t hunt and cull the bad hounds like they did years ago. My buddy told me that years ago he could go to the stock yards, flea markets, or trade days and get a good hound on a trade and it didn’t cost an arm/leg. He stated “Normally if someone told you it was a goodin' then it was a goodin'. I’ve paid good money for hounds, and tried hounds that I would be ashamed to offer to sell someone.” So could this be the problem part of the problem???

Has field trialing hurt today’s rabbit hounds? Maybe, but I don’t think so. Of course I realize that some hounds that place in trials are not what many of us may consider rabbit hounds. I can say that because as a judge I’ve been guilty of place and even putting wins on hounds that I wouldn’t own. However, that day they earned what they got. Judge them 4-5 times after you put a win on them and they look crazy. Hounds like this may run 20 or more trials before they finish. When they finish for FC then people breed to them. Who do we blame the judges that put wins on the hounds, the handlers that are chasing ribbons, the format they run in, or the trainer that should have culled the hound and tore up the paper instead of selling it to someone else?

Once again I’m not trying to bash anyone, any format, any hound. Just wanted to see what other people thought. For you Mid-West guys that have wonder where I’ve been hiding. Hopefully I’ll be back next year. Trying to build a house and haven’t had time to judge or run hounds lately. ‘

Thanks for staying positive and not starting a bash fest,
Keep them running,
Earl Rice

[thornie]

Earl, I posted this before and it's just my opion.

Have We Forgotten
After reading some of the posts on here, I wonder if we have really forgotten what the sport of beagleing is all about. We have been given the chance, by many associtations to compete our dogs. But we have forgotten about the dogs, the one's that give their very best every time we turn them loose.
We have been given a set of rules by each associatation, to go by, but have turned, twisted and even used them to our advanatage. This has cost a lot of us a loss friendships, antimosity, and desention amongst our selves and our clubs.
If we don't take a good look at our SPORT, we probably won't really have to worry about it, because with all the anti's, the laws being changed, that we keep turning our heads on and saying that doesn't effect me or us, we won't be able to do any of the hunting we like.
So I'm asking all of us to just let our little four legged friends, buddies and pals, do what they have always done for us, without any questions. Have We Forgotten it's all about them,not us.

[CPC]

SIZE, I know no one wants to talk about it but people lie about the size of their dog to gain an edge. Now you say no edge to gain, then why so many over 15 inchers at the trials? A beagle is supposed to have looks of a minature foxhound not the size of one. If a man will breed to get over 15 inch hounds in order to compete then say their not, I do not want to do much business with him. Are we really helping the breed to breed them taller? Just an opinion of a rabbit hunter, You don't have to agree and neither do I, But this is a good topic, thanks for starting the thread.

[Newt]

Earl, I'm in agreement with your 65-70 year old friend and River Valley. Back in the 80's a friend and I would drive up to Kentucky and enter the trials or run beagles with John New, Larry Carter and several other beaglers. Those were some of the guys who helped start the Mid West Association. I'm sure they were hunters that decided to compete in a trial format. Our dogs were not of the quality of those guys hounds but we would occasionally win a trophy. I moved away and couln't attend the trails. Several years later I moved back to the area and noticed the hounds that seemed to dominate trials. I decided to drive up and check out a couple of dogs that were placing/winning, with the intent on breeding to one of those dogs. I went to the field and was I shocked. The rabbit came out of the thick cover and straight accross an open field. As soon as the pack reached the field they scattered like a covey of quail. The dog that I was interested in, when reaching the field, just stopped for about thirty seconds, looking from one side to the other watching the other dogs.
Two years ago I took a guy, new to beagling, up to watch a trial. There were eighteen dogs entered in the trial and not one rabbit was circled. Not even the winners pack could circle a rabbit. Even though there were plenty of rabbits, I don't remember a dog jumping one. There were numerous rabbits jumped by the gallery, but once the race was on, as soon as the rabbit changed direction, the race was over. Dogs would over run for a hundred yards and not one would come back to the point of loss and try to work it out. They were all chasing the lead dogs. Interesting that the "lead dog" won the trial and is now being advertised at stud. I see pups sired by him advertised on the "For Sale" board occasionally.

[Ron Conroe]

i think whats wrong with today's beagles are that people want them to fast you see it in trials and just out running with freinds, and especially on the computer when somebody advertises a dog on her it's super fast they don't say nothing about running the rabbit, not everybody does it but most, but that is what people want to hear. what ever happend to running the rabbit the right way. JMO

[davidc5936]

I'm older than most of you (I'm 69) and have a unique perspective on beagles and beagling. I was active in rabbit hunting and field trialing from 1964 until 1973. I had gun dogs and field trial dogs and attended a lot of trials. I got out of it for a couple of reasons- that the number of rabbits dropped drastically where I live (Virginia) due to a tick-borne disease, and I didn't like where field trials were headed. Almost all trials then were brace trials and the dogs winning those trials would be considered 3 to 5 speed today but were trending slower. I got back into beagles and field trials last year, and it is a different world, both in field trials and gun dogs.

I asked a prominent field trail judge basically the same question in 1970- "Are dogs better today than 20 years ago?" His answer was "Yes and No". He said that the best dogs were no better than the best dogs 20 years earlier, but that the "average" dog entered in a trial was far better than the average dogs of 20 years before.

The major difference I have seen is that there are different style dogs for different areas and formats. In 1970 you could place a dog in a trial in Pennsylvania and take the same dog to South Carolina and he would place there, too. Now we have different styles of running within the state of Virginia! It's almost like you have to breed a certain type dog to run at certain clubs or under certain judges. And we're not even talking about different formats! For me, I completely rule out today's tradional brace dogs- they have no place in hunting. To me they have become "freaks"- not something that has any use. Within "gun dog" trial circles we still have a huge difference in opinion on what is a "good" dog.

IMHO, the only problem with today's beagles is that we are trying to judge them by too many guidelines. No one can agree on what a beagle should be like. Another problem I see, which is part of the above problem, is that it is so expensive to ship a dog to be bred that "local" breeding has become the rule. In the late 60's and early 70's, you could easily ship a bitch to a stud several states away for a reasonable price and with few problems, something which isn't true today. So most beagler's are forced to breed to the local field champions, or local dogs which do well, resulting in a wide variety in the running style of dogs.

Another problem I see is judges judging on Saturday and entering dogs in the same trial on "Sunday. This is a perfect set up for problems, yet it happens every weekend. I wish I had the solution to these problems, but I am new back into beagling and just trying to get some good dogs- dogs which please me, and maybe will pease a judge some day.

[klrconcrete]

In a nutshell, the beaglers of today are to blame (if that is the right word?) for the dogs of today. More breeding is being based on what happens in a field trial of some sort than what the dog or dogs do "when it counts"- that being hunting. Front end power and foot speed take precedence over rabbit running ability, only dogs that are "whole" should be used for breeding, by that I mean they have all the tools to let you kill game consistently. It really sounds kind of simple doesnt it? If it is that simple go get me a "whole" dog, as a matter of fact I will take two! Kurt