A general forum for the discussion of hunting with beagles, guns, clothing and other equipment and just talking dawgs! (Tall tales on hunting allowed, but remember, first liar doesn't stand a chance)
Newt wrote:Tim I gues you believe that you could hunt just as well with a pack of wolves.
What's ironic about this is that you would have me believe the pack of wolves couldn't hunt rabbits without me.
The question was "Could you hunt rabbits with a pack of wolves"? You are getting props for evading the question. The Breeder enables you to hunt with the descendants of wolves. Neither the trainer nor owner changed a wolf to a hunting dog, it was the breeder.
Well if we're gonna play it that way then the trainer doesn't get any credit either. It should be God or the primates depending on what you're beliefs are. We wouldn't even be able to walk in an upright position if it wasn't for one of them and we wouldn't have opposeable(spelling?) thumbs either to be able to use the transmitter for our shock collars to teach the dog how to be a dog.
Look you can argue all day long but the reality is the best trainer in the world CANNOT make a dog hunt. You may be able to help him along but you can't make the dog a super dog. Was Michael Jordan naturally gifted...............YES...........so does he get the credit or do his coaches??? He wouldn't be where he was if it wasn't for his abilities and the guidance he received along the way but the bottom line is without his natural abilities there is absolutely no way he would have been the basketball player he turned out to be. If it was all based on a trainer or a coach then technically I should be able to do everything he did as long as I had the right coach??? Again I'll say .......
And like I said before it takes all of the above to make a great hound. It needs to be a combination of all of those things but it has to start with a dog that has the skills to make a great hound.
Oh yeah and whoever said dogs don't scent trail game, WRONG. They may have learned to give mouth because we needed them to and in the wild it probably wouldn't have benefited them very much to bark while trying to surprise their prey but yes they do trail by scent and sight.
Bunnyblaster
"You can't change the past but you can ruin the present by worrying about the future."
I have a couple of questions from what I have read with interest on this topic. We don't get to see how others do in different parts of the country.
1) Do you folks have to teach your dogs to not backtrack?
2) What the heck is a "proper Tally Ho"?
I do think like so many topices here, it varies on where you live and where you have to run that dictates the degree of training that is required of a hound.
We just open the dog box and they jump out and go hunting on their own while we finish our coffee. So, I think its the blood (instinct) that is in the individual dog that makes it what it is around here. Can't be the training as they get none. Do learn by experience though. Come to the truck (if not running) when the humans do or get left in the big bad woods alone for a day or longer, etc.
We put them in (some jump in) when they come in to go home. Not much training required here.
John , all i can say is you my kind of people. You just got a way with words. Wish i had what u got..lol Must be a wippin gettin them dogs in that box...
jimbo said it best,a good breeding program is where it all starts,that is what gives the dog its tools,then it is up to the owner/trainer to fine tune them,shure,some dogs are naturally smart and does everything right everytime out but they are few and far in between,but when one does come along,then it takes a true dog man to see that and to breed it into his or her kennel,then you still need to figure out the right recipe for the dog,and what i mean by that is this,some dogs need ran more then others,i guess i got lucky,my dog bandit is very low maintenance,once i have him in tip top shape,i usually just have to run him once or twice a week to keep him hard and sometimes i just run him at the trials on the weekends and that is it,of course i am talkin akc trials,where we run our dogs all day,not just an hour and that is it,but every dog is different,some need ran hard,some dont,some need soloed to get them to run the line and some dont,but it takes a true dog person to be able to figure the dogs out and run them right,but it all starts with the breeder..........................
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"SOUTHERN OHIO'S ONLY ONE STOP TATTOOS AND PIERCINGS HEAD SHOP " 740-285-1911 FC HOWARDS BANDIT
The reason some guys keep coming up with the great ones is they have an eye for a dog. A dog that has the ability to be great. A great example of this is Wayne Waits. Wayne doesn't breed much and he just retired so he didn't get to run much. He has won about everything there is to win in the ARHA amd most of it came from buying a young dog that has the ability to start with. He has the talent to know a good prospect when he sees it.
I have enjoyed this post more than any in a long time. Different ideas and opinions are what makes the world go around. It has really been fun seeing the different ways people think. I hope we get some more good posts like this.
Newt, I didn't evade the question at all, if you don't see the answer in what I replied with then you just aren't understanding the answer. That doesn't mean I didn't answer.
I wanted to bring this back to the top of the board. It was a great post to read and I was just wondering if everybody still stands behind what they wrote.
Bowling's Old Blood Beagles BOBB's Line of Hounds Selective breeding of Old Branko "NINJA"/Ranger Dan = BOBB's Line
i would have to say it starts with the breeder but ends with the dog it self with the trainer in the middle good breeding will give you a good chance at getting a good one taking the dog out will let you know if the dog has any talent to hone but it all rests on the dog it self some dogs just have it my Grandfather got a dog once from a farmer where he was hunting the farmer told him he had a dog show up a while back and she was out running all the time he said she just sleeps there on the $hit pile if you can catch her take her so he did and she was a great dog no one knew the breeding but she was great running all by her self probly for her own food he hunted alot with Ray Slowiak and his DFJ hounds Ray would say " you gonna bring that $hit pile dog " and my Grandfather would say "might as well she'll probly be the only one that can run a rabbit" so i think it really all rests on the dogs natural abilities grade or registered
I WOULD SAY BREEDER 1ST AND TRAINER 2ND FOR THE SIMPLE FACT THE BREEDER DONE HIS HOMEWORK TO MAKE THE CROSS SO THAT WOULD MAKE IT EASIER FOR THE TRAINER BECAUSE ITS ALREADY IN THE DOG BUT I BELIEVE A GOOD ALL AROUND DOG IS NOT ONLY IN HOW GOOD THEY CAN RUN A RABBIT BUT HANDLING AND TRASH PROOF IN WHICH THE TRAINER HAS ALSO TOOK CARE OF SO AT A MATURE AGE THERES NO HELP OF ANY EQUIPMENT LIKE A SHOCK COLLAR ECT. JUST MY 2 CENTS
Mapel Valley Kennels LLC. on Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:53 am
Without a planned well thought out cross, nothing else matters.There is a difference between a breeder and a oh man i think it will work breeder. Training is by far crucial, but the breeder built the road, the trainer /owner just walks it.
The Valley
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--BOBBY- HAD A REALLY GOOD POINT YOU CAN POLISH ALL YOU WANT,,, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY IT'S WHAT IT IS ,,,
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--GOOD POINT JIMBO
--I WOULD ADD THAT THE HOUND SHOULD ALWAY'S GET THE CREDIT,,,,,,,,,,BUT,,,,,,,,,,,WITHOUT THE BREEDER,,,,,,,,,,THERE WOULD BE NO HOUND, AND THIS THREAD WOULD NOT BE HERE,,,,,AND MY OPINION OF THE GREAT ONES IS--- WHEN A GOOD BREEDER MET WITH A GOOD TRAINER....THERE IS A LOT MORE TO TRAINING A SERIOUS GOOD RABBIT HOUND,THAN HAS BEEN MENTIONED HERE,,WHEN YOUNGER I HAD A FIST THAT I GOT A LOT OF RABBITS WITH,I TRAINED IT TO JUMP AND RUN WHAT IT DIDN'T CATCH,,BUT I WOULD NOT CALL IT A RABBIT DOG
If a man shuts his ears to the cry of the poor, he too will cry out and not be answered
From personal experience and witnessing what I see a few Saturdays during hunting season I would say trainer hands down. Every so often I hunt with a fellow who COULD have some great dogs. He has the Pine Mtn.,directly off Chester, some Branko old stuff, and a direct son of Drew's Blue Storm, along with some other bloodlines. When rabbit season goes out his dogs go in the pen and they do not come out until a couple of weeks after rabbit season is in. So really his dogs get run about 10 times per year, if that. No matter the foundation that has been laid, these dogs for the most part cannot get the job done on a constant day to day basis. Just my opinion though.
Cedar Row Beagles
LPRCH Mike's Ace in the Hole
LPRCH Cedar Row Harley
hounddog wrote:Heres a question for those of you that voted for breeder/ pedigree. As we all have seen a very good one in our times, what about the grade dogs. I have had some good ones and had no idea what they were out of. Can you still say it was there breeder and their pedigree?
hounddog
Jim Umbarger
Jim ur right i have seen some of the best grade dogs around but what could they produce? A few did most could not.Everyone and there brothers cousins aunt nephew has brankos line somewhere in it , but no can seem to reproduce the caliper hound he has consistenly produced over 20 years so why is that? I still say breeder is the starting point of any great one.
When the moment of truth arrives, the point of preparation has passed.
Old School, Full Throttle ,No Bottle.
