Which is harder to win in, ARHA, UKC, or AKC.

[eddywilliams]

To be a UKC GRAND HUNTING BEAGLE CHAMPION you 1st have to accumalate 100 pts including a 1st place win ,makes a HUNTING BEAGLE CHAMPION ,then you have to have 5 1st place wins running the HBCH CLASS where if more than 1 cast goes out only the dog with the highest score will get the 1st out of all even if you win your cast .Its not that EASY ill tell you that .

[Chief Long Hair]

First off thanks Mapel Valley Kennels LLC. and Joseph J Murphy.

eddywilliams, not trying to bash you here but your way off base. I did it for 5 years. I saw clubs that only had 4 or less opens. Is that tough to win? Most of those trials I went to MAY have 10 to 12 open dogs. Still too easy in most peoples' point of view here.

Here's a point that you forgot to mention. Yeah you said it takes 100 points to be a HBCH but what you forgot to point out is the fact that a win gives you 40 points no matter if you beat 1 dog or 40 other dogs, at least you have to beat one other dog. Second get 35 points, third gets 30 and so on down to 10 points. Seems pretty easy to me.

In AKC if you win, you get the total number of dogs that competed, including your dog, minus all the dogs that got scratched for whatever reason. A hell of a lot tougher again in most peoples' views. Second gets half of the total dogs, third gets a third and fourth gets a fourth, and that's it. You get a nice green NBQ ribbon for fifth and maybe a handshake or two but no points, all others you're going home lickin' your wounds. That makes it tougher yet to get what it takes in points in AKC. By the way, it takes 120 here.

Now you might come back at me and say "Well yeah but it takes 5 wins in the champions class to be a GRHBCH, that's Grand Hunting Beagle Champion to you totally, nothing but, AKC only guys out there!" I can dispute that as well. Most champ classes that I competed in had 4 or less dogs involved, a few only had 2. If you throw your dog in there enough he/she will get their 5 wins. Again easy in most peoples' views.

I didn't even mention here how easy it is to get "out handled" here as well. I can't even give it enough info here to really state how bad it can get. You just have to experience it to do it justice. I'd say I've been "out handled" about one fourth of the time. Pretty sad that some people resort to "out handling" someone just to win.

Another problem here is the rules. They don't work half of the time. First of all, everybody in the cast has to understand them the same. Can be hard to do with four opinions and egos. Let me correct that, and just one ego. Oh!!! I'm sorry. There's a judge involved. What!!! he has a dog in it too!!!!!! That's where you can get "out handled" especially if only one of the other three handlers is a buddy or relative to the judge, easy to get out voted here. It takes one whole minute for a check? Give me a break!!! And what's this speed and drive thing prove when the whole cast just gets to see about 1/1000th of the completed circle? I could go on here but I'd be wasting my time. I will say though UKC's performance pack is not so bad, not great but one heck of an improvement.

One more thing here. I've got a good friend here that use to compete in UKC since it's beginning. He quit last year due to health concerns but he always boasted about the fact that he's had at least 1 HBCH a year. Some years it would be three. Too easy to me.

I know the original question here involved only wins but probably the toughest champion title to get is an AKC FC title on a 13" male. Yeah it might be easier to win here due to the low number of little males, usually some where around 15 to 17. But the points don't add up very fast and you have to have 120 along with the required 3 wins to be an FC.

Again, eddywilliams, I really don't mean to beat up on you here. The information here is mostly facts and less on my own opinions but it is these facts that I use to base my opinion on this issue.

Da Chief

[randy hicks]

AKC , CKC.

[hurryup]

Jeff,
Sorry to hear you have been injured. I am not getting to involved in the post, you do raise some very good points, being friends I am interested to hear your opinion. I like running in all three. For me I guess its impressive when I see a dog titled in more than one association. Let me say there are some outstanding dogs running in all 3 formats.
I look forward to seeing you this fall at some hunts. Oh yea I am coming back..LOL.. Take care of your self. Get Well.
Vicky

[eddywilliams]

Long Hair not taking sides with ukc just stating that with the state races now alot of hunts have 2 to 4 champion casts and it is harder if you are running at hunts with those low turnouts and still arent winning ,you might need another handler or hound .Im not meaning to beat up on you either ,Also I believe the AKC MIDWEST is the topof the line AND TOUGHEST TO FINISH TO FC ,but there are a lot of tough hounds around ohio running UKC also .

[R.W.Hawk]

The question as worded is "which is the hardest to win?" The answer is UKC H&H format "IF" you are "not" a hunting judge, however if you are one of the hunting judges , then it becomes the easiest to win. I certainly agree with Chief..their are more counterfeit Champions in UKC H&H , then any other format.
The shame of it is, this actually could be one of the better formats, Speed &Drive, jump and striking ability, endurance, all good attributes for hounds. The problem is , the hunting judges are blind to the faults of their own dogs, the handlers voting on the various judgement calls, are based on how the scoring will affect their hounds, rather then, what actually occured. The entire rules format of H&H , does not solve issues that are challenged in the field, but rather incites arguements , ill feeling, and out right cheating by hunting judges.
If someone offers a UKC HB Champion for sale , and you may have an interest in this dog, the first question you should ask the seller is, "are you a judge?" if the answer is yes , then walkaway.

[danny vansickle]

look at it this way,


if you take all the living champions hounds from ukc,arha,and akc i guarantee you there are less akc fc dogs alive today and there is a reason for that,making an akc fc is a lot harder than arha,and being that i have never ran ukc,i cannot say but i see it this way,


if ya win a 10 dog hunt in arha ya get 40 points,then all ya need to do is place at a few morre hunts and ya have a champion


if ya win a 10 dog hunt in akc,ya get 10 points,so,ya still need 2 more wins and 110 pionts,


pretty self explainatory,nd from what everyone says,the point system in ukc is about the same as arha,so,bottom line is this


ya make a fc in akc,ya done something very few do,everybody that runs arha has at least one lpch in there kennel and most have a lot more,how many have a akc fc in thier kennel?

not to mention,any style of dog can win in arha,fast,slow,rough or clean,but to win in akc,ya better have a real rabbit hound,one that runs the actual rabbit,and doesw it right...............................


jmho

[eddywilliams]

I agree with Danny Midwest is the toughest and I also agree about the judging in Ukc I have been hosed as much as any one in all these years but you gotto battle them ,come witha tough dog and be on your toes and a lil luck ,the guys that will do ya wrong usually get you on lines from all ive seen overthe years or a hole but I have learned that if they cheat me they will get bad luck right back at them

[Matt Wilson]

I agree that AKC is harder to champion a dog one is that you have to do alot of traveling as clubs are few and far between and most only have 1 hunt a year. ARHA and UKC have many clubs and can hold alot more hunts per year. Many more opurtunities to champ a hound in ARHA and UKC without haveing a forturne in traveling cost. Run what you like and have fun. Now as far as a ukc champ not being any good I am sure that there are champs in any format that arent any good. Rember In AKC dogs arent judged on hunt just running ability so I am sure they are FC that arent that good at jumping a rabbit. Remeber before judging a dog on its title go see it run and then deceide.

[Ohiohntr]

Rember In AKC dogs arent judged on hunt just running ability.

Wrong!!!!!

This is one area that is heavily stressed in the AKC judging seminar....a dog that does not hunt will be ordered up...period, no if-and's-or but's. It is also covered in the rule book....something along the lines...."A hound shall search for its prey and any dog that does not do so should be considered faulty and ordered up."....or something like that. This also includes dogs not searching for scent from the point of loss...ie...dogs standing around in the check area.

AKC is a merit/demerit system....not hunting for a jump or searching for scent is a HUGE demerit

[Chief Long Hair]

HEY!!! WHERE'S THAT POP CORN EAT'N SMILEY GUY!!!!! YOU'RE MISS'N IT!!!!!

Vicky, I love ya girl. I know you understand me on this issue. I'm looking foward to seeing you at the Midwest trials again this year. I think my first one will be in your neck of the woods at Schumaker's farm the last weekend of September. That will be Great Miami's fall trial. You've got to make it to our Midwest trial October 10 and 11 this year. It will be held in Oakland City, IN., the same place where UKC holds it Eliminator. You know the place. Tell John HI and he needs to come as well. See ya. By the way, I hope that your thumbs haven't fallen off yet due to all that texting you do.

Bye,
Da Chief

[hurryup]

Hey Chief,
Are you coming to LaRue or Marion as I call it? If not I will see you at Schumaker farms. I will be down there all weekend. Got the list of judges last night. I have a couple of new dogs (surprises) to bring and little Glory. Are ya doing ok with your arm? I know your not married, so someone needs to remind you to take care of yourself... LOL.
I would love to come out to your hunt in Oct.
How are things going for Justin and wife?
Want to talk to you and get your opinion on some crosses we might make.
Look forward to seeing ya and the rest of the gang. I am getting around a little better so I can handle my dog this year but I doubt SHE will let me get away with that. Jon is coming to.
Vicky

[JD Baisden]

Rember In AKC dogs arent judged on hunt just running ability.

Wrong!!!!!

This is one area that is heavily stressed in the AKC judging seminar....a dog that does not hunt will be ordered up...period, no if-and's-or but's. It is also covered in the rule book....something along the lines...."A hound shall search for its prey and any dog that does not do so should be considered faulty and ordered up."....or something like that. This also includes dogs not searching for scent from the point of loss...ie...dogs standing around in the check area.

AKC is a merit/demerit system....not hunting for a jump or searching for scent is a HUGE demerit

Now that is funny right there! Just like running off game is a demerit!

[Ohiohntr]

Rember In AKC dogs arent judged on hunt just running ability.

Wrong!!!!!

This is one area that is heavily stressed in the AKC judging seminar....a dog that does not hunt will be ordered up...period, no if-and's-or but's. It is also covered in the rule book....something along the lines...."A hound shall search for its prey and any dog that does not do so should be considered faulty and ordered up."....or something like that. This also includes dogs not searching for scent from the point of loss...ie...dogs standing around in the check area.

AKC is a merit/demerit system....not hunting for a jump or searching for scent is a HUGE demerit

Now that is funny right there! Just like running off game is a demerit!

First of all...forgive me, I am terrible when it comes to comprehending blanket statements.

I'm not sure I get your humor, or maybe it was just sarcasm from a bad experience...dunno....I assume you have attended the AKC judging seminar and actively judge because it sounds like you know the rules but it was hard to tell with only two sentences. If so, maybe you can enlighten us all on your vast knowledge of the merrit and demerrit system, I come on here to learn and I'm sure others do as well. I could have swore I read it in the book about "hunt and search" and I also thought I heard the AKC rep say it over and over...maybe I am wrong, who knows. I think I will look it up tonight and post it word for word if I can find it.....or were we talking about running off game....this is all so confusing. I knew I should have taken up basket weaving instead of field trialing.

[Joeyman]

HEY!!! WHERE'S THAT POP CORN EAT'N SMILEY GUY!!!!!

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