Which is harder to win in, ARHA, UKC, or AKC.

[Big Mike]

Somewhat of a loaded question, in this regard. You have named three different registeries, however within these three registeries are various formats, perhaps 15 diiferent formats that fit maybe 6-9 different style of hounds.
perhaps if you you narrow it down, you could get a better comparison, (i.e.) UKC H&H , and Arha LP are similar types of hounds.

[andyp_dirtypond]

AKC

[blackrunbeagler]

I'm not sure which is harder as I would not know because I don't trial as much as I wish I could. But the best advice I ever got about trialing came from my wife's uncle when I first started trialing. He said " You have to learn to lose before you can win." How true.
Aub

[rajun cajun]

i would say akc is the hardest for me...i run little pack and my dogs are usually a little ruff for akc..

[hounddog]

A win is hard to get in any format. I trialed hard for two years before I got my first win. In most cases, they don't come easy!

hounddog
Jim Umbarger

[tinymwoods]

I have never been in an AKC trials as they are all brace around here. UKC is a lot harder to win in my opinion. The problem with UKC is that you may win your cast hands down and never put your hound back on the ground. If you have 6 casts, the highest 4 scores go back out that won their cast. Because you may not have had as many rabbits in your cast, you may not get to let the best dog run. I think that is a rule UKC needs to study a little.

[island ridge hounds]

i've only ran akc once and didn't get what they were after. i run little pack and have most of my trial day's. on occasion i have ran progressive pack. akc i watched hounds run for a couple of hours and the dogs they brought back were plan and simple pack dogs. the dogs that in my mind got the checks and pushed the rabbit didn't even make the winners pack. asking the judge the dogs had no minuses so i was totally confused which happens from time to time. a rabbit dogs a rabbit dog. i run little pack but not really crazy about the swinging dogs i do own one but he seems to mess a good race up on occassion but if hes on watch out. i'm going to
stay with little pack i've been seeing over the years dogs are alot tighter than they used to be. someone mention that they would like to see a champion in little pack have two wins i guess that might cut down on the number of champions but if your really looking for the rabbit dog and really want to cut down on little pack champions vote to make them certifiy. make them
circle a rabbit on there own before they wear the tag champion. it sure gets my vote.
buddy wall

[LIVE WIRE KENNELS]

akc is who you know.dogs winning and getting in the winner pack that ran off game that a joke.

ACCORDING TO THE BEAGLE FIELD TRIAL RULES OF A.K.C.PROCEDURE 8-J(Pg.40)"EXCEPT FOR TRAILING A DEER,WHICH SHALL BE A DEMERIT,TRAILING GAME OTHER THAN ANNOUNCED SHALL NOT BE CONSIDERED A DEMERIT."

[jdmart]

You guys crack me up!

[Chief Long Hair]

jdmart, wait till you read this. I'm stuck at home for about three months due to ripping my left bicep muscle tendon off the bone in the elbow and I ain't got nothin' else to do.

AKC is the hardest to win, followed by ARHA then UKC. But I'm going to break it down a little more. I see where some people here have their likes and dislikes on the formats posted as well. Well, this is a place for opinions and here's mine.

1) (tie) Most AKC Large Pack events that are in the north. Dogs need stamina here BAD. Check work is not needed here as much as Midwest Beagle Gundog Asso. due to running hare verses cottontail or swampers. Line control with speed though is still needed here to win. They also have a lot of good clubs. They also have good numbers in all classes but "13" males. Trying to get a win in the "15" male class of 50 or more is as hard as it'll get.

1) (tie) AKC SPO, Midwest Beagle Gundog Asso. to be more specific, all round best dog format IMHO. This is where one can see beautiful check work if the judges chose the right dogs for the winners pack. Seeing a dog here that finds the check and explodes out with great speed and line control is something else to see as well. Only thing missing is the amount of stamina required verses Large Pack. Try running your dog against 30 to 50 other dogs for hours on end with no breaks. Just can not be done here. Not only do they have many good clubs, they're spread out among many States which equates to many different types of cover. I wish there were more true "13 males here. Most classes have less than 15. The little female classes in retrospect are huge, often over 30+. I've also seen "15 male classes over 60 or 70 dogs. Now that's hard to get a win just like Large Pack. It also wasn't that long ago when there were classes over 100+.

3) AKC Southern Large Pack is close to the above tie. It would rate as a tie with the above if there were better turn outs at their events. If that were to happen on a constant basis, it would be a tie because it would almost have it all: check work, line control, and stamina among other things. Speed would be missing because how thick the cover is. I once won here in the big male class with 22 other dogs. That's a big class here. They ran for 7 hours none stop in 80 degree temps and the sun beating down. If you think that's bad, think about what the air was like at 12" above the ground in thick cover as the dogs were running. I wish they had more clubs though. In the past year or two they have lost 2 clubs and there weren’t that many to begin with in the first place.

4) ARHA. I haven't tried any other format other than Little Pack so I'll leave it at that. I will say though that I do not care for the rough running I see here. I've seen quite a few of these rough running grands get picked up in the first series of an AKC event due to running that way. If they were to change that, it would rate higher. Another problem I see here is no test on stamina at all. One hour at a time twice for a grand total of two for one day? Give me a break. I have been at a few AKC events where the best dog at the start runs out of steam in the last hour or so and then resorts to running rough just to keep up or just runs in the back not saying a thing. I don't know about some of you but when I go gun hunting, it's for more than two or three hours. I also don't like having one judge per pack in most situations and usually a different judge for the winners pack. I've seen two totally different styles of judging in one day where I got screwed in the winners pack for one thing but the same exact thing was just fine in the earlier pack. This has happened more than once and not just at one club. I would like it better if they were to require two judges per pack and do something about the rough running. I could live with the different judge thing. They do have many, many, many clubs but down south such as Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, etc., they're a much slower style dog compared to up north. I've heard ARHA's Big Pack compares to the north's Little Pack style dogs much better. They just run in one large pack.

5) UKC's Performance Pack. I like how they deal with rough running here but their judging is left to be desired just as in ARHA, especially the style thing. No stamina requirements here as well. I think it's at least one and a half hours at a time verses one in ARHA. An extra hour all together to win? Give me a break again. I see at least three hours in just the winners pack alone in MWBGA, usually more. That hour an a half thing might have changed though. I'm not up on their rules as I should be. One more thing here that lowers their rating, not enough trials are available and very limited locations to go to. They need more clubs.

UKC's so called Hunting Beagle is way too much handler and I give no value to a "so called" champion or grand champion dog in this format. I do believe it works as well as anything else for Coonhound but not beagle. It kind of reminds me of putting bib overalls on a CEO of a Fortune 500 company, it just don't work. I also think that the degree should be attached to the handler, not the dog. I guess that would make me GRHBCH Jeff Leonard a few times over. I know. I tried it for 5 years and will never try it again. Sorry if I'm stepping on some toes here but people that know me understand how I feel on that issue and I think I can speak for them when I say they agree with me. Lets put it this way, Todd Morgan and I will never have a quiet steak dinner together. That would require knives.

One more thing, this "I don't like AKC's deal on dogs running off game" don't hold water with me. It is true that AKC SPO lacks exact wording for dealing with such dogs but they've got it covered. There are two rules here that kills it. If the judges suspect something wrong, they can require the handlers to get their dogs back within a 15 minute time frame. If not, they're scratched. If any of those dogs do come back, the judges then continues with those dogs. Second rule is that if these dogs, who came back, start a rabbit then all missing dogs now have only 5 minutes to join in. If not, they're scratched as well. Now if a dog goes off on a deer, fox, yote, etc. let's say, my hat is off to you if you can catch your dog AND get back with the pack in 15 minutes. Within 5 minute, I'll give you my paycheck for one week. Usually it's hours. A judge's opinion also comes in here as well. Don't you think he'll remember which dog made his day a little tougher because it went off on off game?

Just like everyone else here------JMHO.

[Mapel Valley Kennels LLC.]

jdmart, wait till you read this. I'm stuck at home for about three months due to ripping my left bicep muscle tendon off the bone in the elbow and I ain't got nothin' else to do.

AKC is the hardest to win, followed by ARHA then UKC. But I'm going to break it down a little more. I see where some people here have their likes and dislikes on the formats posted as well. Well, this is a place for opinions and here's mine.

1) (tie) Most AKC Large Pack events that are in the north. Dogs need stamina here BAD. Check work is not needed here as much as Midwest Beagle Gundog Asso. due to running hare verses cottontail or swampers. Line control with speed though is still needed here to win. They also have a lot of good clubs. They also have good numbers in all classes but "13" males. Trying to get a win in the "15" male class of 50 or more is as hard as it'll get.

1) (tie) AKC SPO, Midwest Beagle Gundog Asso. to be more specific, all round best dog format IMHO. This is where one can see beautiful check work if the judges chose the right dogs for the winners pack. Seeing a dog here that finds the check and explodes out with great speed and line control is something else to see as well. Only thing missing is the amount of stamina required verses Large Pack. Try running your dog against 30 to 50 other dogs for hours on end with no breaks. Just can not be done here. Not only do they have many good clubs, they're spread out among many States which equates to many different types of cover. I wish there were more true "13 males here. Most classes have less than 15. The little female classes in retrospect are huge, often over 30+. I've also seen "15 male classes over 60 or 70 dogs. Now that's hard to get a win just like Large Pack. It also wasn't that long ago when there were classes over 100+.

3) AKC Southern Large Pack is close to the above tie. It would rate as a tie with the above if there were better turn outs at their events. If that were to happen on a constant basis, it would be a tie because it would almost have it all: check work, line control, and stamina among other things. Speed would be missing because how thick the cover is. I once won here in the big male class with 22 other dogs. That's a big class here. They ran for 7 hours none stop in 80 degree temps and the sun beating down. If you think that's bad, think about what the air was like at 12" above the ground in thick cover as the dogs were running. I wish they had more clubs though. In the past year or two they have lost 2 clubs and there weren’t that many to begin with in the first place.

4) ARHA. I haven't tried any other format other than Little Pack so I'll leave it at that. I will say though that I do not care for the rough running I see here. I've seen quite a few of these rough running grands get picked up in the first series of an AKC event due to running that way. If they were to change that, it would rate higher. Another problem I see here is no test on stamina at all. One hour at a time twice for a grand total of two for one day? Give me a break. I have been at a few AKC events where the best dog at the start runs out of steam in the last hour or so and then resorts to running rough just to keep up or just runs in the back not saying a thing. I don't know about some of you but when I go gun hunting, it's for more than two or three hours. I also don't like having one judge per pack in most situations and usually a different judge for the winners pack. I've seen two totally different styles of judging in one day where I got screwed in the winners pack for one thing but the same exact thing was just fine in the earlier pack. This has happened more than once and not just at one club. I would like it better if they were to require two judges per pack and do something about the rough running. I could live with the different judge thing. They do have many, many, many clubs but down south such as Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, etc., they're a much slower style dog compared to up north. I've heard ARHA's Big Pack compares to the north's Little Pack style dogs much better. They just run in one large pack.

5) UKC's Performance Pack. I like how they deal with rough running here but their judging is left to be desired just as in ARHA, especially the style thing. No stamina requirements here as well. I think it's at least one and a half hours at a time verses one in ARHA. An extra hour all together to win? Give me a break again. I see at least three hours in just the winners pack alone in MWBGA, usually more. That hour an a half thing might have changed though. I'm not up on their rules as I should be. One more thing here that lowers their rating, not enough trials are available and very limited locations to go to. They need more clubs.

UKC's so called Hunting Beagle is way too much handler and I give no value to a "so called" champion or grand champion dog in this format. I do believe it works as well as anything else for Coonhound but not beagle. It kind of reminds me of putting bib overalls on a CEO of a Fortune 500 company, it just don't work. I also think that the degree should be attached to the handler, not the dog. I guess that would make me GRHBCH Jeff Leonard a few times over. I know. I tried it for 5 years and will never try it again. Sorry if I'm stepping on some toes here but people that know me understand how I feel on that issue and I think I can speak for them when I say they agree with me. Lets put it this way, Todd Morgan and I will never have a quiet steak dinner together. That would require knives.

One more thing, this "I don't like AKC's deal on dogs running off game" don't hold water with me. It is true that AKC SPO lacks exact wording for dealing with such dogs but they've got it covered. There are two rules here that kills it. If the judges suspect something wrong, they can require the handlers to get their dogs back within a 15 minute time frame. If not, they're scratched. If any of those dogs do come back, the judges then continues with those dogs. Second rule is that if these dogs, who came back, start a rabbit then all missing dogs now have only 5 minutes to join in. If not, they're scratched as well. Now if a dog goes off on a deer, fox, yote, etc. let's say, my hat is off to you if you can catch your dog AND get back with the pack in 15 minutes. Within 5 minute, I'll give you my paycheck for one week. Usually it's hours. A judge's opinion also comes in here as well. Don't you think he'll remember which dog made his day a little tougher because it went off on off game?

Just like everyone else here------JMHO.

The rest of the story.Thanks Chief.

[Joseph J Murphy]

nice post chief!
J Murphy

[Buckeye Blues]

Gee, suddenly I no longer have the desire to field trial............. not really, but reading all this does make you think. My club runs AKC gundog brace. My dog is definately not a gundog brace hound (she's a swinger and too fast) so I was considering little pack, but there would be alot of traveling involved.

Since I'm not gonna get rid of my hunting companion I have 2 choices: Spend alot of money traveling to get her in ARHA LP events. Or just keep picking her up when so ordered while supporting my club's events and in those clubs who support us.

I guess there's a third.............I could always get a second dog that runs that style....I like this choice best!

[Chief Long Hair]

Buckeye Blues, I'm sure you will do what I'm about to say here and that’s go with what you like. It sounds like your club near by is an AKC SPO United Beagle Gundog Federation type. Those dogs can do a great job bringing the rabbit around to the gun as well. No one can fault you if you were to go for that. As a matter of fact I applaud you if you do. What ever yanks you crank, enjoy what you like. You do have one other choice though and you joked about it. That is to not trial and just enjoying running. Many people that I know do just that.

As far as travel length goes you're in a fairly good location. You're almost in the middle of trialing country if you live in Ohio. There are a few good clubs in that State and all surrounding ones as well. But you're talking to a guy that is well known to travel as far north as the U P of Michigan, down to almost New Orleans Louisiana, east to upper State New York, west well into Missouri and all points in between. I’ve even made it into Canada one time. I also know of someone who’s closest trial is 12 hours away and they still do it, every year.

Yeah, OK, I’m not married but that’s by choice. Almost everyone that travels trialing like me are married. Imagine doing this but adding your kids into the mix. I think I’ll miss that part the most. It will turn out to be unforgettable, excellent, lifetime, experiences for not only you but for them as well, boy or girl. If you’re one of the lucky ones, your wife will participate as well, or not.

If your only reason for going to trials is for the purpose of getting a title or degree on your dog, you better quit now. If your only reason for going to trials is for the purpose of winning or placing, you better quit now. If your only reason for going to trials is to show that you have the best dog or dogs and no one can be better, you better quit now. No one can handle that frustration. You’ll do nothing but harm yourself and the people surrounding you. You'll do nothing but show you butt and you‘re better off staying close to home.

I do it not just because I want to trial my dogs and hope to win or place, but it's the whole life’s experience of it. I'm talking about meeting new people and getting back with some old acquaintances met along the way. Experiencing the local cuisine, especially if it involves mud bugs and fried okra in Forest City Arkansas, a good steak and sweet potatoes fries near Batesville Mississippi, a really good and “country wide” known pizza in Hurly Wisconsin, a “cook-ur-own” steak in Danville Illinois, or a local seafood place in Sandy Creek New York that has New England clam chowder to die for, (sorry I can remember the name of the place).

And the scenery rates just as high with me as well. I wonder what the “look on my face” looked like when I saw how high the chicken wire fence was at Sandy Creek. I think it was 9 to 10 foot tall! I thought they went to great lengths to keep deer out when I was told it was that high to keep the rabbits in! They let me dwell on that for about 15 minutes and then they told me they get close to that much in snow due to the fact they’re only 6 miles east from Lake Ontario. Where else could I see that near home. I saw my first bobcat and armadillo in Arkansas and I couldn’t believe how small the deer were in Louisiana but boy their rats were huge. I thought I knew what flooding was till I crossed the Mississippi river going into southern Missouri. It involved miles of land before even crossing the river! The experiences just keep rolling.

Another great experience would be enjoying watching good dogs run. Hopefully one or two of them are mine. The latest and by far the greatest dog I ever saw run was just this past winter and spring. Her name is FC Durham’s Lilly. What a treat it was to see her run. Our 15” female almost made every winner’s pack with her. I think we only missed two of them if I recall. In other words, I enjoyed seeing her a lot and I expect I’ll never see anything like it again. I think that gave me a better knowledge of what a good dog should be. That better understanding will do nothing but help me find faults in not all other dogs but help me concentrate more my own from now on. That’s a good thing I think.

I often think not only where would my beagling experience and knowledge would be if I were to stay close to home but my whole life as well. More limited I would think. Where else can you go and talk dogs a lot. These beaglers like to talk dogs and share information. One of the things I learned was how to care better for my dogs’ medical needs at a lower cost.

And they don’t always talk dogs. I know of a guy who nailed a good paying job because he rubbed elbows with beaglers at trials. What also could be better than traveling around the country doing what I enjoy most along with expanding my horizons and outlook on life. Winning a huge Power Ball lottery? I heard that can screw you up bad. I’m good right here gaining these experiences trialing.

Winning or placing in a trial is not necessary by me. It's just like desert after a good meal. I don't need it and I don't expect it every time, but it's sure nice when I get some. By the way, we only got one NBQ ribbon to show for our efforts with our 15” female against Lilly but boy I sure did enjoy it!

Enjoy what you like.

Da Chief

[danny vansickle]

akc is who you know.dogs winning and getting in the winner pack that ran off game that a joke.

THINK BEFORE YA STINK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


GO TO MORE THAN ONE TRIAL BEFORE YA GIVE YOUR OPINION ERIC,I AINT TRYIN TO BASH YA BUT YOU ARE BASING YOUR OPINION ON THE ONE AKC TRIAL YOU WENT TO AT WURTLAND,GO TO SOMW MORE,YOU MAY LIKE THEM...............


AKC IS BY FAR THE TOUGHEST FORMAT TO FINISH A DOG,AND THE MIDWEST I FEAL IS THE CREAM OF THE CROP,IF YOU FIN ISH A HOUND FOR FC I AKC MIDWEST,YA DONE SOMETHING,JMHO


I AM AT A BUDDYS HOUSE RIGHT NOW,AND WE JUST HAD THIS DISCUSSION BEFORE I LOGGED ON IRONICALLY,HE HAS A HOUND HEAR THAT IS A PRETTY TOUGH DOG,BUT HE IS ROUGH,I TOLD HIM THAT HE NEEDS TO SELL HIM AND GET A DOG THAT HE CAN RU IN AKC,HE SAID NO,I LIKE RUNNING ARHA CAUSE IT IS SO MUCH EASIER TO WIN THERE


AND THAT IS THE REASON ARHA IS SO BIG,SO MANY PEOPLE JUST THINK ABOUT WINNING AND DOIM IT AS EASY AS POSSIBLE,AND LETS FACE IT,FINISHING A DOG FOR LPRCH IS VERY,VERY EASY,THERE IS NOTHRILL IN IT FOR ME ANYMORE,NOW I DO THINK MAKING A GRAND IN ARHA IS A LIL TOUGHER,BUT I SEE GUYS GRANDING OUT DOGS ALL THE TIME BY GOIN TO THIER BUDDIES CLUBS AND GETTING THIER 5 CLUB HUNT WINS,MAKE IT LIL TOUGHER,REQUIRE A DOG TO AT LEAT WINN A STATE HUNT OR BIG 5,THEN YA ACCOMPLISHED A LIL SOMETHING,BUT LETS FACE IT,WHEN WE SET DOWN AND LOOK AT PEDIGREES,WHAT DO WE LOOK FOR?...........


FC ANDS IFC TITLES


NOW,YA MAY NOTICE THAT I DONT HAVE ANY OPIONION ON UKC,UNLIKE OTHERS,I WOULD RATHER ATTEND A FEW TRIALS AND GET A FEAL FOR THEM BEFORE I GO BADDMOUTHING THEM OR VOICING MY OPINION